nicko

Transfer Lantern fuel

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If we are lucky to have two lanterns or more in our inventory. Can we some how transfer fuel from one to another without having to harvest a lantern?

Sure we can always harvest a lantern to get fuel, but why trash such a good lantern? when one day if could be re filled and light again.

Then again it's all about choices? this could be another choice?

 

Edited by nicko
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I agree with this. As crazy at it sounds, I would often choose the more worn out lantern and use it until the fuel ran out when I needed it before I'd harvest any metal from it. (I didn't realize it saved the fuel. Perhaps this is another change from the version I had or something I didn't notice.) I hate to waste. So, I'd burn that baby down to where the metal was all that was left.

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I am in favour, but I feel like it should have a small downside to it - because if we are talking about pulling the fuel out, most of the time in real life the fuel wouldnt go out entirely, since its a sticky substance that doesnt flow as well as a water, for example. 

And during "transfering" of the fuel, a little bit would be spilled as well. 
So, I think we should be able to "transfer out" 90% of the fuel, 5% would be left in the lantern and 5% would be forever lost.
Or just 90% transfered out, 10% lost. To encourage people to rather use up the lantern fuel in individual lanterns then throwing it out.

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6 minutes ago, Mroz4k said:

5% would be left in the lantern

1% would be more realistic.. ;)

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46 minutes ago, JAFO said:

1% would be more realistic.. ;)

I mean, that kind of depends on how much fuel was there to begin with.
You are probably correct, but, you know - game balance argument. If it were a 1% might as well just give it all back.

Also, considering how difficult it is to "spill out" the entirety of apple juice out of a cartoon box and that there will be 2-3% of it left inside no matter how much you  try, attempting to "spill out" lantern fuel through a tiny metal hole of that lantern when lantern fuel is much more oily and stickier substance, I would argue there would be much more "left inside" then just 1%. And how much you spill and lose... that really depends on a person now, doesnt it? :D

I could see more or less spillage based on how tired the person is and how cold they are. Warm, steady hands probably are going to be much better at it then shiverring tired hands.

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I think the points about fatigue and cold factoring in are good, reasonable points made. That would affect it on the amount of success one might have in doing this, and it makes sense.

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I'm on board with this...

There's also the time factor when harvesting the lantern. Just draining the fuel should take less time. When you're rushing to make sure you get to your destination before the light fades, there's no point in spending an hour scrapping a perfectly good lantern just so you can gather enough fuel to make sure you can make it through the cave or mining tunnel.

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An argument against this could be made, that the storm lanterns were designed to only work one way, meaning fuel can only go in, not out.
An anti-argument against this argument could be made, one could unscrew the storm lantern fuel entry to remove the lantern fuel that way if they wanted to, without damaging the storm lantern in a long run.

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9 hours ago, nicko said:

If we are lucky to have two lanterns or more in our inventory. Can we some how transfer fuel from one to another without having to harvest a lantern?

Sure we can always harvest a lantern to get fuel, but why trash such a good lantern? when one day if could be re filled and light again.

Then again it's all about choices? this could be another choice?

 

I wish I could upvote this 10 times a second from now until Sunday Afternoon.  It's silly that we can't. It's also silly that kerosene has a condition at all. And silly that we cant pour one can into another. Why must I have 14 small bottles of fuel all at different percentages, when I have 2 4 liter cans with only a few drops remaining?  I always FILL a lantern that i'm about to harvest, from using up the worse condition/small amounts of the .5 l  cans, then make sure i have ONLY one of the bigger cans in my inventory when i harvest it, so it goes into the big can.  I've railed about this for years now, that kerosene has a "condition".  The stuff lasts like 20 or 30 years.  All they need to do is add a "fill" option to the cans, a "drain" option to the lanterns, and remove the condition stat on kerosene, MATCHES, and medical items so the stuff will stack.  

Edit:  I'd just like to add that 1) lantern fuel is not thick or sticky. It pours EXACTLY like water.   2) If we can pour it INTO the lantern through a tiny hole from a bottle without spilling it all over ourselves and losing amounts, regardless of how cold or tired we are, why could we not manage to pour it back out.?  Putting it in is considerably more difficult than taking it out. 

Edited by TROY
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2 hours ago, TROY said:

I wish I could upvote this 10 times a second from now until Sunday Afternoon.  It's silly that we can't

Well said, and seconded.  And this is something where I don't care about "realism".  Just give me easier management.

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4 hours ago, TROY said:

I always FILL a lantern that i'm about to harvest, from using up the worse condition/small amounts of the .5 l  cans, then make sure i have ONLY one of the bigger cans in my inventory when i harvest it, so it goes into the big can.

Good technique.. I've gotta start doing that.

 

4 hours ago, TROY said:

I'd just like to add that 1) lantern fuel is not thick or sticky. It pours EXACTLY like water.   2) If we can pour it INTO the lantern through a tiny hole from a bottle without spilling it all over ourselves and losing amounts, regardless of how cold or tired we are, why could we not manage to pour it back out.?  Putting it in is considerably more difficult than taking it out.

Very good points.

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4 hours ago, TROY said:

It's also silly that kerosene has a condition at all.
...
Why must I have 14 small bottles of fuel all at different percentages, when I have 2 4 liter cans with only a few drops remaining?

In researching something else related to lantern conditions, I actually came across what might be behind this.. here's a couple of quotes from a recent Steam forums discussion:

Quote

Why allow a % of quality if there's no use?

Quote

I can't say for sure, since I am not a Hinterland dev or staffer... but- I think that the % on the mag lens is there for when you have it in your backpack, and get into a wolf struggle or mauled by a bear. The game seems to roll the dice, and pick random items from inventory and clothing, and if picked it gets another roll for a random % of damage. I've had mag lenses at 27% come through a wolf struggle unscathed, and ones at 40% be ruined from damage in the struggle. So if it picks the mag lens as one of the items that takes damage, assigns it 30% condition loss, whether it survives and remains usable depends on it's condition % before the struggle.

Quote

Part of the purpose of % on some things, like lanterns, is because they can be destroyed. Sure, you could run around with a 10% lantern and functionality isn't affected. Get mauled by a bear though and you might just find that lantern got destroyed, because bears can do random damage to items in your pack while they're using you as a chew toy.

So, there you have it.. Items that it make no sense to have condition because they don't wear out, have condition so that the wildlife can trash it and potentially ruin your day.

Edited by JAFO
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18 minutes ago, JAFO said:

In researching something else related to lantern conditions, I actually came across what might be behind this.. here's a couple of quotes from a recent Steam forums discussion:

So, there you have it.. Items that it make no sense to have condition because they don't wear out, have condition so that the wildlife can trash it and ruin your day.

That makes perfect sense, in regards to items like lanterns, sure. But, how exactly does a bear ruin Kerosene?  I know I also mentioned matches, and meds. I suppose I can see how its possible that a bear could ruin those, but ya know, I'd accept it simply being ruined. From 100%, or from no condition indicator.  If I'm carying 15 matches, and my matches are what gets ruined by the bear, so be it. I don't need them to have been at 50% condition for the ruining to be justified. Matches having condition is just asinine. The damn things can sit in a cupboard for over a hundred years and still work fine, if they're dry.  And, as far as I can tell, they dont actually lose condition in the game, so just WHY?  Let.Us.Stack.Them.  Now, packs of cardboard matches? Sure. Keep the condition. And I'll live with condition on meds if they really think it's pertinent, or somehow adds challenge to the game. EVEN IF you ever did actually have some go bad, it's not like they arent the easiest thing in the game to replace with natural stuff gathered while yer out walking around... take them out of the game completely, and treating medical conditions is only a teensy-tiny sliver more inconvenient than with them, so again, just WHY? Kerosene though? It's condition has absolutely no impact on how well it works, whether it works, how long it burns for, the condition of a torch crafted from it, the chance to start a fire using it... it makes absolutely no sense at all, whatsoever, in this or any alternate universe, under any conditions, praying to any of 50,000 God's, Saint's, Devils or Demons, no matter if a mexican hockey team wins the Stanley Cup, or if the price of Russian mail order brides doubles, to have condition on Kerosene, or matches. 

That's my opinion. Everyone else is welcome to their own, and be wrong, if they wish. :) 

Edited by TROY

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11 minutes ago, TROY said:

But, how exactly does a bear ruin Kerosene?

Well.. I guess the can gets punctured, and you lose the fuel..

Still not a good enough reason for having condition, I agree.. having a random item destroyed by an attack is fine, even without condition attached to it.

I was just trying to illustrate what may be Hinterland's thinking on the subject.. doesn't mean I agree with the way it's implemented.

 

11 minutes ago, TROY said:

Let.Us.Stack.Them.

HELL YES!

Edited by JAFO
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Yes, please. Gimme!

*stackstackstackstackstackstackstackstackstackstackstackstackstack*

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I agree with the argument about stacking. I guess I could see kerosene be "ruined" if as a result of the animal attack, it got punctured and mixed with a snow or something. If it simply "got punctured" it would just dissapear, you would have 0 l of kerosene, not 0,5 l of ruined Kerosene. But that is just me, being a stickler.

I dont see much point in matches, having condition either. If a bear smacks you and your matches get into a crossfire, I doubt it makes much difference if they were in poor or a pristine condition, it will be cracked to bits either way. But yea, I can see how that is a case with the magnifying glass, for example. That is why I never carry it around with me :D

I think the condition in kerosene might also be related to purity, but the game gives no shit about what condition your kerosene was in when you used it - even if its a crap made out of fishes, it burns just as bright and well as the high quality one.

I think the condition was just added because all items have condition (might be wrong here, but I think all items have it), at least as far as I know... and while some items spawn with 100% every time, most items seem to have condition randomized. But the fact we cant combine liquids cause of different conditions is just lame. Condition for kerosene and gas canisters should be set to always be 100, same with matches - to make them stackable.

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The idea of draining fuel from lanterns instead of only being able to refuel them is probably the best idea I have read by Nicko since I joined the forums.

Good job, @nicko!

Only being able to reclaim fuel by harvesting the lantern and destroying it, has been an annoyance to me since I started playing. Especially since it takes over an hour to harvest it and you get like one scrap metal. It's a very inefficient use of your time to get a little fuel out of a lantern.....

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Plus this would fix the much bemoaned issue of having condition on lamp oil, because putting it into a lamp and taking it out again will give all the ejected oil the same condition! @TROY

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Well, I guess the team has work to do in October.  It's not our fault they're on vacation and can't vote on the matter. I'll draft a PR release for Raph to put out informing everyone that chapter 3 will be slightly delayed in order to remove condition from kerosene, make it transferrable from can to can and lanterns able to be drained.  Special thanks to @nicko for getting the ball rolling and great job everyone for coming together on this!  Won't they be pleased to see what their community can accomplish by ourselves while they're gone!  :D

 

Maybe they'll call the update "Blindsiding Light" 

Edited by TROY
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On 9/7/2017 at 8:12 AM, nicko said:

If we are lucky to have two lanterns or more in our inventory. Can we some how transfer fuel from one to another without having to harvest a lantern?

Sure we can always harvest a lantern to get fuel, but why trash such a good lantern? when one day if could be re filled and light again.

Then again it's all about choices? this could be another choice?

 

I agree with this idea the same with gas cans and laturn fuel things.

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19 hours ago, TROY said:

That makes perfect sense, in regards to items like lanterns, sure. But, how exactly does a bear ruin Kerosene?  I know I also mentioned matches, and meds. I suppose I can see how its possible that a bear could ruin those, but ya know, I'd accept it simply being ruined. From 100%, or from no condition indicator.  If I'm carying 15 matches, and my matches are what gets ruined by the bear, so be it. I don't need them to have been at 50% condition for the ruining to be justified. Matches having condition is just asinine. The damn things can sit in a cupboard for over a hundred years and still work fine, if they're dry.  And, as far as I can tell, they dont actually lose condition in the game, so just WHY?  Let.Us.Stack.Them.

I vote that if we can stack them (which has long been something I wanted in this game!), we also get the ability to split stacks in our inventory however we want. While I agree that having different conditions of matches is asinine, I think we've glossed over why it exists. As Jafo points out, every item in our inventory is st risk of being damaged in a struggle (or mauling), but if, say, you just finished looting an area and are transporting a total of 80 stacked wood matches, that would only count as a single item that you risk losing. The way the game is now, it would likely be four to six items (stacks of 15 or so), thus minimizing the chance of having all your matches destroyed. Theoretically, this would also mean that it lowers the chance of any one particular item getting damaged (like your gun). Now, personally I would take my chances and throw everything in one stack, anyway, but some people may want to play more cautiously and split their stacks, which I think should absolutely be the player's decision.

Or another possibility is that matches, meds, and oil are treated like cloth in that they stack and are ignored by struggles/mauling. Perhaps only clothing, food, and tools should be at risk for being damaged in mauling? This would then enable removing conditions on most other items and stacking. (Though oil is technically counted as a tool, annoyingly...)

Oh, and holy crap, YES let us drain lanterns! And Troy, thanks for the tip about scrapping the lantern with only a Jerry can in your inventory! I'm actually really excited to start doing that!

 

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wow, great community feedback / support. Let's see what HTS does. Awesome!

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