Permadeath

[hozz1235]

Let me know how you feel if you do die and have no back-up with that many days played and your ultimate goal of 500 days...see if some measure of boredom would override frustration.

It's about entertainment for me.  I spent my money on it and will play it the way I believe (for me) is the most enjoyable.  You play your way.  I'm not trying to tell anyone else how to play the game or HOW it should be played.

[Mixxut]

9 hours ago, hozz1235 said:

Let me know how you feel if you do die and have no back-up with that many days played and your ultimate goal of 500 days...see if some measure of boredom would override frustration.

It's about entertainment for me.  I spent my money on it and will play it the way I believe (for me) is the most enjoyable.  You play your way.  I'm not trying to tell anyone else how to play the game or HOW it should be played.

There is no need to take offence.... Just calm down, why is this topic still going? You act like somebody is personally attacking you.

[Prestermatt]

6 hours ago, Mixxut said:

There is no need to take offence.... Just calm down, why is this topic still going? You act like somebody is personally attacking you.

It's because a lot of people here jump immediately into an attitude of "that will utterly ruin the game and anyone playing that way is cheating themselves."  That last part is a bit of an attack, because it is presumed that we don't know what's good for us.

There are many suggestions that come across these forums that I, personally, feel would ruin the game — at least for me.  NPCs in Survival Mode would take away from the spirit of isolation that is a big part of why I play.  Multiplayer would be even worse.

But as long as those would just be options, and I can keep playing the game the way I love to play?  Sure, that's fine.  It doesn't bother me.  I can ignore those things just like I ignore the fact that Story Mode is there in the main menu.  Maybe someday I'll play it for a different kind of fun, but not right now.  I'd like to think that adding an option to turn off permadeath would be a similar situation, but people keep arguing that it's such a core element of the game that adding the ability to turn it off would cause irreparable damage.  I think the game is much more resilient than that.  Which is why @hozz1235and I are still here discussing it.  I think we've been quite calm about it, actually.

[Pillock]

7 hours ago, Prestermatt said:

It's because a lot of people here jump immediately into an attitude of "that will utterly ruin the game and anyone playing that way is cheating themselves."  That last part is a bit of an attack, because it is presumed that we don't know what's good for us.

There are many suggestions that come across these forums that I, personally, feel would ruin the game — at least for me.  NPCs in Survival Mode would take away from the spirit of isolation that is a big part of why I play.  Multiplayer would be even worse.

But as long as those would just be options, and I can keep playing the game the way I love to play?  Sure, that's fine.  It doesn't bother me.  I can ignore those things just like I ignore the fact that Story Mode is there in the main menu.  Maybe someday I'll play it for a different kind of fun, but not right now.  I'd like to think that adding an option to turn off permadeath would be a similar situation, but people keep arguing that it's such a core element of the game that adding the ability to turn it off would cause irreparable damage.  I think the game is much more resilient than that.  Which is why @hozz1235and I are still here discussing it.  I think we've been quite calm about it, actually.

I think you're probably right (having already posted a pretty intolerant response to the idea earlier in the thread!) 

But I definitely  think that any disabling of Permadeath should be restricted to custom modes (so, not a general option) and should make that game unable to contribute to feats or achievements. 

Maybe they should give the setting a derogatory name as well, in order to satisfy the purists : Pretend Survival Mode ON/OFF maybe; or Scaredy Pants ENABLE? 

[cekivi]

1 minute ago, Pillock said:

Maybe they should give the setting a derogatory name as well, in order to satisfy the purists : Pretend Survival Mode ON/OFF maybe; or Scaredy Pants ENABLE? 

No need for derogatory names. I personally really dislike that trend for certain games to name "easy mode" as "baby mode". 

[Pillock]

Just now, cekivi said:

No need for derogatory names. I personally really dislike that trend for certain games to name "easy mode" as "baby mode". 

Spoil sport

[cekivi]

1 hour ago, Pillock said:

Spoil sport

Eh, I just don't see the point when it's all arbitrary anyways. 

Although "zombie" mode might be a fun tongue in cheek name for a mode without permadeath.

[Prestermatt]

1 hour ago, Pillock said:

But I definitely  think that any disabling of Permadeath should be restricted to custom modes (so, not a general option) and should make that game unable to contribute to feats or achievements. 

I'm on board with this.  As I've already said, the Custom Mode is a perfect place for this and it keeps the core game exactly as is.

I'm not really sure why such games couldn't count towards feats, given that you can generate as many easy Pilgrim games as you want and spam fires everywhere to get the fire badge, but fine.

[Prestermatt]

1 hour ago, Pillock said:

Maybe they should give the setting a derogatory name as well, in order to satisfy the purists : Pretend Survival Mode ON/OFF maybe; or Scaredy Pants ENABLE? 

Yeah, I know you're joking, but this isn't helping.  People choose to play the game in Pilgrim mode, but do we mock them for it, because that's the way they have fun with the game?

Think about it.  Which is the greater challenge: Pilgrim or an Interloper-like game without permadeath?

[mystifeid]

2 hours ago, cekivi said:

Although "zombie" mode might be a fun tongue in cheek name for a mode without permadeath.

Day 492. I feel like a zombie and zombie mode is starting to sound pretty good too.

[Carbon]

10 hours ago, Prestermatt said:

Think about it.  Which is the greater challenge: Pilgrim or an Interloper-like game without permadeath?

 Difficulty is indeed a continuum. Interloper without permadeath is on the easiest end of that spectrum because you simply cannot lose the game. In TLD's context, its god mode.

[Prestermatt]

3 hours ago, Carbon said:

 Difficulty is indeed a continuum. Interloper without permadeath is on the easiest end of that spectrum because you simply cannot lose the game. In TLD's context, its god mode.

Not really.  I haven't played Interloper, but aren't the key defining factors the scarcity of resources and the super harsh environment?  Removing permadeath doesn't create a "god mode" at all.  You're still stuck with the same harsh environment and minimal gear.  Yes, it is easier than regular Interloper.  You can reload after freezing to death in a blizzard or getting caught by a wolf.  You can try to make different choices out of your limited options, but you're probably just going to die again because restarting from a save isn't going to magically improve your situation.  There will be another blizzard, another wolf, and still too few matches.  To call it "god mode" is taking it a little too far.

Compare this to Pilgrim, where you can walk all day in three-down-arrows cold and never even get hypothermia risk, and you never have to hunt because you can survive on nothing but granola bars that you find everywhere.

[cekivi]

3 hours ago, Prestermatt said:

To call it "god mode" is taking it a little too far.

Not really. Once you get established in Interloper (which is difficult) for experienced players it becomes quite easy. @mystifeid keeps posting screen shots of his Interloper games with 100 kg + of cooked meat outside of the Camp Office. Without the risk of death you can live forever and take crazy risks with no consequences even on Interloper.  

[Prestermatt]

10 minutes ago, cekivi said:

Not really. Once you get established in Interloper (which is difficult) for experienced players it becomes quite easy. @mystifeid keeps posting screen shots of his Interloper games with 100 kg + of cooked meat outside of the Camp Office. Without the risk of death you can live forever and take crazy risks with no consequences even on Interloper.  

Right, and I've been reading @mystifeid's recent reports.  They sound filled with boredom.  Once you're that experienced, the game isn't really a challenge anyway.  I don't see removing permadeath — as an option, remember, for people who choose to — is really going to change that.  Getting to 500 days already is a pointless exercise that exists only to satisfy personal ambitions, much like people's personal goals to map the world or collect every single stone on the island.  If I were trying to do a 500 day run, and got killed by a wolf with a few hours to go because I clicked on the wrong icon in the wonky weapon selection screen, I would not say, "Oh well, that's TLD!"  I'd be pissed, and I'd probably never try it again, because I don't have the time to do it.  Not everyone has 2000 hours to spare to put towards the game.  Why force me to put countless hours into what becomes a chore just to satisfy some arbitrary notion about challenge?

That is the point where the game ceases to be fun for me: when I can't play the way I want to play, but have to keep doing the same things over and over again just because the game forces me to.  I'm not always interested in the thrill that death (and starting over, and having to do everything again) could come any moment; sometimes I just want to explore the beautiful world Hinterland has made.

[Prestermatt]

Let's put it another way: why isn't there permadeath in Story Mode?  Presumably so people don't have to keep starting over and doing the same fetch quests over and over again just to get to the end.  Can you imagine how frustrating that would be for someone who just wants to finish the game?  Basically, I'm making my own story.  Give me the option to keep progressing so I can see it to the end.

When I go back to wanting the thrill of survival, I promise to turn permadeath back on.

[vancopower]

On 8/7/2017 at 2:44 AM, andz said:

I just bought the game and because I know my way around survival games I started in stalker (after completing storymode) aiming for a 200 day survival mission. I have been playing the game for almost a week now, every day for 6 hours, and two days were just hauling thing from A to B.

Then, after I established a base with all tools and 30kg of meat,  I wanted to check how far you can fall without dying. So I just jumped down a cliff and died. Then I discovered the fact that, UNLIKE IN STORY MODE, there is a permadeath in The Long Dark. There has never been any information on that in the menu. Seriously, who klicks "read more" in Steam? I just watched some You Tube let's plays and they never died. So that issue never came up. I even have been reading like 50 pages in the Wiki on how to craft and where to go, and the information never showed up. Seriously, why would you force permadeath on players?

The game has been really great and I enjoyed every second of it, I am sad beyond belief. I have just uninstalled the game and will never recommend it to any one for its forced way of gameplay. It's like World of Warcraft would have decided to lock the camera in first person view, because it's thier vision for the game. Ridiculous. It's 2017. Let me enjoy the game how I like it. It is just so dissapointing.

Why would I even have the motivation to restart the game? I know what I have to do, so from this point, the first week of gameplay would just be re-grinding. It is as exciting as watching paint dry.

Haha You killed yourself in TLD on purpose ? Like the game is not hard already you need to experiment with it.  I understand your frustration but you can't blame anyone but yourself. TLD is harsh survivalism you can't experiment with it. It always has been and it always will be.  Permadeath is the only way to play TLD if it wasn't there than it is just another survival they might as well put zombies in it and make it survival clone. I recommend that you start another game but this time be more serious with it like it is all happening to you.  You wont  jump from a cliff in real life would you?   

[Pillock]

2 hours ago, Prestermatt said:

Let's put it another way: why isn't there permadeath in Story Mode?  Presumably so people don't have to keep starting over and doing the same fetch quests over and over again just to get to the end.  Can you imagine how frustrating that would be for someone who just wants to finish the game?  Basically, I'm making my own story.  Give me the option to keep progressing so I can see it to the end. 

Actually, I don't think this is a very good argument. Survival Mode doesn't have an end, except for death. You can't see the game through to the end, unless you die. If you don't (or can't) die, you just carry on forever. 

Wintermute is totally linear. The player has no scope at all to play it through multiple times with different methods or outcomes. So starting from the beginning each time you died would get pretty tedious. (having said that, with the new difficulty modes for Wintermute, there probably should be obligatory Permadeath in that part of the game too. It might make it more exciting) 

 Survival mode, on the other hand, is much more varied each time you start a new game because of the non-linear nature of it. You can explore the world and have new and varied experiences across multiple play-through attempts - you don't have to do all that the game offers in the same 'life'. 

Wintermute is focussed on experiencing the narrative - that's the purpose of the game mode, rather than the survival elements. Survival Mode, as it's name suggests, is all about survival. If you take away premadeath, then it isnt really a survival mode anymore, since you don't have to survive in order to continue - it completely loses its purpose. It stops being a proper game, and becomes more of a tech demo. It distorts what the game is actually for. 

 

[Prestermatt]

19 minutes ago, Pillock said:

Survival Mode doesn't have an end, except for death. You can't see the game through to the end, unless you die. If you don't (or can't) die, you just carry on forever. 

Unless you're setting your own goals and making your own story.

Let's remember that Survival was originally called "Sandbox".  I think that was a better name for it.

[Pillock]

8 minutes ago, Prestermatt said:

Unless you're setting your own goals and making your own story.

Let's remember that Survival was originally called "Sandbox".  I think that was a better name for it.

Yes, I was going to mention that. The very fact that Hinterland changed the name to 'Survivor Mode' suggests to me that didn't want it to be a totally freeform sandbox, once the Early Access testing phase was over. I think they wanted it to have a specific challenge and purpose beyond just playing about in the snow (Sandbox, Snowbox, whatever). I'd say that Permadeath is the one feature above all others that gives the game its sense of challenge and the one feature whose removal would in turn remove that challenge and purpose. You have to be able to fail - I don't see anything wrong with that.

Any game will carry the vision of its designers: they are creating a particular experience that they want to share with players. They might choose to the generous and allow people to play it in a way that contradicts their intended vision and purpose for the game, but I wouldn't blame them at all if they just said turned round and said "No". I would, if I were them.

Anyway, you can still set your own goals and make your own story with Permadeath on; you just don't get to choose from the outset exactly how long it's going to be, and you have to actually succeed in achieving the goals you set. You don't make up your story beforehand and then play it out exactly as you imagined, without deviations: the story is created as you play, and includes unexpected or unintended plotlines resulting from when things don't go exactly to plan. That's a good thing. Go with it.

[mystifeid]

The way things stand the developers have made it very easy to subvert their vision with respect to permadeath and it's pretty obvious from reading this thread that there are people playing this game without permadeath.

Saying that this is wrong and that they should play the game the same way as you or me or anyone else is intolerant and likely to have little effect. If they paid their money let them do what they want until such time as the developers make it impossible or nigh impossible to do things like backup games or even to reload the game at just about any point. And if they don't do that, as far as I'm concerned they've given tacit approval to the evasion of permadeath and might as well make it a feature of the game.

With a little experience, past a certain point in a game it's nearly impossible to die anyway unless you're willing to sit around for who knows how long waiting for some resource to be exhausted. Oh wait, you can still survive without that resource...

End?? The game doesn't end. People give up. They get totally sick of it.

Yet if you suggest things like random chances of death be introduced to help combat this inadequacy, well then, let the wailing begin : oh no, I'm all for permadeath but it has to be my mistake that kills me.

Yeah, life's like that too.

[Pillock]

9 hours ago, mystifeid said:

Saying that this is wrong and that they should play the game the same way as you or me or anyone else is intolerant and likely to have little effect. If they paid their money let them do what they want until such time as the developers make it impossible or nigh impossible to do things like backup games or even to reload the game at just about any point. And if they don't do that, as far as I'm concerned they've given tacit approval to the evasion of permadeath and might as well make it a feature of the game.

Or maybe by not implementing a permadeath option in the game's interface they're giving their tacit disapproval to the evasion methods, while not viewing it as important enough for them to try and prevent it altogether?

People can do what they want to circumvent the game's intended "rules" if that's what they enjoy doing. It doesn't affect anyone else . But it's a bit of a stretch from that to expecting the developers to actively facilitate it via the in-game menus.

[mystifeid]

1 hour ago, Pillock said:

But it's a bit of a stretch from that to expecting the developers to actively facilitate it via the in-game menus.

Very true. And before custom options were added I would never have expected it to happen. But now?

[belthize]

On 1/15/2018 at 6:30 AM, Prestermatt said:

Not really.  I haven't played Interloper, but aren't the key defining factors the scarcity of resources and the super harsh environment?  Removing permadeath doesn't create a "god mode" at all. 

Once you figure out to only eat before you sleep, to always sleep for 6+ hours and to collect all cat tails you come across then interloper is easy and death is just from the unexpected event, like wolf or falling off ravine trestle.; exactly the sort of things save game restoring avoids. 

In other words the reason interloper is harder is it forces you to take chances which in turn ups your risk of instant death, if there's no permanence to those events then there's no risk so it's not harder.     It's just more annoying due to the weather and cabin fever.

[Pillock]

40 minutes ago, mystifeid said:

Very true. And before custom options were added I would never have expected it to happen. But now?

Well, that's anyone's guess. But I think the two things are quite different in terms of the design philosophy.

Personally, I think it's fairly unlikely that permadeath will become optional until modding support arrives and someone does it themselves. As Raphael van Lierop said in the Rugged Sentinel video, "Permadeath has always been a core part of the Survival Mode experience."

I don't mind if they do change it, because we'd presumably still have the option to keep it switched on - the same way that we can choose not to use Feats. But I don't see it coming through an official update, honestly.

[hozz1235]

It wouldn't surprise me (and I wouldn't expect it) if HL never adds this as a custom option.  They have every right not to do it.  Besides, there are plenty of workarounds for those who don't want permadeath.  Let's let them focus on bug-smashing and new content