Permadeath

[Doc Gonzo]

6 hours ago, Carbon said:

Permadeath is the way TLD should be played and if it ever went away, so would the tension that makes the game as compelling as it is. I've said this many times: be careful what you wish for because without the constant danger of losing it all is a heartbeat, any victory is rendered far less meaningful.

 Keep it brutal; no hand-holding, no mercy, a razor-thin margin of error, 'cause that's where the fun is.

 While not endorsed by HL, it is well-known that one can back up saved games easily and while it won't put one right back to the second before the fatal moment, it is an option for those who need some measure of insurance. If that's what stops someone from playing, well, the gamer in me says fine, but I also want the game to thrive, so backup if that will keep you playing.

QFT.  Seriously if anyone is reading this and questioning the importance of permadeath re-read these statements.  With no permadeath the sandbox/survival mode is pointless.  Nothing you accomplish without the threat of permadeath has any meaning ... 

[hozz1235]

While I'm sure we all appreciate your opinion - people (and opinions) vary.  I don't play with permadeath (through backing up my saves) and I get great enjoyment from the game - I mean, it's all about entertainment, right?  I don't find it entertaining to invest my precious time and energy only to have to start completely over.  I want to choose when to start a new game, not the game deciding for me.

[Doc Gonzo]

48 minutes ago, hozz1235 said:

While I'm sure we all appreciate your opinion - people (and opinions) vary.  I don't play with permadeath (through backing up my saves) and I get great enjoyment from the game - I mean, it's all about entertainment, right?  I don't find it entertaining to invest my precious time and energy only to have to start completely over.  I want to choose when to start a new game, not the game deciding for me.

Well, yes.  As you pointed out there are ways around it and as long as you're entertained still there's no harm.  That said -- I confess I just don't get it.  But to each their own.  

[hozz1235]

It's okay - some people may not get your viewpoint.  Makes us human.

[Prestermatt]

Again, this is why we make turning off permadeath an option in the Custom Sandbox, so it's there for people like @hozz1235 and myself, but everyone else can continue playing as normal.  It's a win-win.  Backing up game files works, but it is cumbersome, and it would be nice to not have to resort to that.  (In the interest of disclosure, I've only backed up my save once, and that was before hauling a large amount of gear across the Ravine; it took a lot of trips, and I didn't want that game to end just because my hand slipped at the wrong time.)

[Mixxut]

I think permadeath is the point of this game and it would be super boring without it. But if you like to do those backup saves, go for it. Whatever.

[hozz1235]

49 minutes ago, Mixxut said:

I think permadeath is the point of this game and it would be super boring without it. But if you like to do those backup saves, go for it. Whatever.

Love the judgements...

[Prestermatt]

58 minutes ago, hozz1235 said:

Love the judgements...

You're not playing the game right, @hozz1235.  All that fun you've been having is just an illusion.

[hozz1235]

1 hour ago, Prestermatt said:

You're not playing the game right, @hozz1235.  All that fun you've been having is just an illusion.

And I feel so bad about it! 

[Mixxut]

Opinion=judgements

[cekivi]

Just an observation: backing up a save is not the same as autosave. You have to remember to do it and you would still lose all of your progress for that gaming session since you backed up your game. There is still the tension and risk of failure albeit to a lesser degree. 

[Carbon]

 Nobody is judging anyone; this feels like the defensive language of the overly sensitive. Making one's opinion known does not constitute a judgement toward those whose opinions are contrary; this is the nature of healthy, constructive debate.  I agree that the option to toggle permadeath is a reasonable idea, if only to maintain the player base. HL stated very clearly long ago that there was zero chance of a customized experience and that has fallen by the wayside, so they are listening and making changes, even ones with which they might not completely agree.

 It does seem that there are two discussions however: one regarding where the 'thrill' of the game resides and the other regarding the severity of punishment said thrill can dole out. I don't think anyone is arguing about the former, so it simply becomes a question of if this should be a toggle option or not. What would such a setting affect? Certain achievements, for one. Many would indeed lose context and thus meaning; making it to 500 days with 50 reloads seems bittersweet and hardly an 'accomplishment' in the current context. It may reflect one's tenacity, but in and of itself, it means one just put in the play time. So while the idea of a toggle seems simple, it does have corollaries that need consideration. And yes, making it to 500 days with permadeath present is a greater achievement than through reloading and if that difference makes one feel somehow bad, then too bad.

 Any quick-save or reload option should be accompanied by a clear and present tally of how many times death occurred, which would make for a new and interesting statistic to play against (another way to measure a personal best). I can't recall what game it was, but when 'god mode' was enabled, if the player would have died in a given situation, the game displayed the screen-wide message "Player should have died but God Mode is enabled" and wouldn't remove the message until a reload was enacted. I thought this was great: you can have your Godmode, but we won't let you forget that you're using it!

 So, sure, toggle it, but let's not ignore the knock-on effects of doing so, nor ignore or downplay the differences that enabling such an option creates.

 

[Pillock]

It's called Survival Mode. The objective is to survive. If you don't survive, you have failed the objective. It's Game Over and you have to try again.

That's the whole point of the game. You want the option to turn off the whole point of the game?

Do you also want the option to turn off the story in Wintermute? Do you want the option to turn off the time-limit in the "Hopeless Rescue" challenge? Do you want the option to turn off the Old Bear in "The Hunted"?

The argument for "choosing your own way of playing" and not being "dictated to" by the game is being taken much too far here: the game needs to give you a scenario, a set of rules and an objective, otherwise it isn't a game. Besides, the game isn't dictating that you die - you are doing that yourself.

In terms of having total player-choice over how the game works, that's what modding is for. I guess you could until that's supported: then you will be free to not-die when you die, not-freeze when you lose all your body heat, not-starve when you run out of calories, or whatever other upsidedown way of playing you can think of.

[Wade]

While I feel that Permadeath is the foundation of the sandbox experience, I also don't really see any harm in it being an option IF it has no progress towards feats.  I applaud Hinterland for finally giving in and allowing custom difficulty, however I don't feel we should be entitled to have every tiny setting.  I don't think Hinterland should waste their time trying to please every individual customer.

3 hours ago, Pillock said:

In terms of having total player-choice over how the game works, that's what modding is for. I guess you could until that's supported: then you will be free to not-die when you die, not-freeze when you lose all your body heat, not-starve when you run out of calories, or whatever other upsidedown way of playing you can think of.

 If people don't enjoy Permadeath, they are free to use save editor or backup their saves.  Personally I wouldn't want to play that way but it wouldn't affect me at all if there was an option to turn it off.  If Hinterland was going to keep one of the core options of the game set in stone, Permadeath would be the one I would hope they refuse to budge on.

Question:  To those who backup their saves or circumvent Permadeath, do you feel as though you are cheating yourself out of the experience the game was intended to give you?

[cekivi]

On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎05 at 1:33 AM, Carbon said:

 So, sure, toggle it, but let's not ignore the knock-on effects of doing so, nor ignore or downplay the differences that enabling such an option creates

An excellent summary of the huge can of worms this would open... 

[Prestermatt]

15 hours ago, Wade said:

Question:  To those who backup their saves or circumvent Permadeath, do you feel as though you are cheating yourself out of the experience the game was intended to give you?

Not really, because I'm not playing for that "experience".  When I try out Interloper, I'll play it as intended, trying to survive day-by-day and taking the long dark when it comes.  But for now I'm having a blast in a custom Voyageur.  I'm enjoying just being in the world, exploring, and collecting.  I could play Pilgrim, but that is just too easy; I want a little challenge to keep me on my toes, to give me problems to solve.  But given that I'm exploring in this game, I also don't want to have to start over from scratch because I made a stupid mistake, or sprained my ankle in a place I can't escape from, or hit one of those instant death walls I've heard people mention.  Maybe if I had unlimited time to play it would be fine, but my playing time is very limited.  I have a personal goal, and I'd like to accomplish it.  Permadeath isn't part of that at all, it just adds frustration.

Of course, I haven't actually backed up this game yet, which I should probably try to do if I can remember next time I play.  It would be so much easier if it were baked into the game instead of having to dig around in save files, which is why I've been plugging the option in this thread.  I've almost cleared Mountain Town, and I don't want to have to do it again.

[Wade]

12 hours ago, Prestermatt said:

Not really, because I'm not playing for that "experience".

Thank you for answering my question.  This is the perfect example of why custom difficulty was added.  So that each person could tailor the "experience" more to their liking.  I love Permadeath, but I can understand why others would prefer to play without it.  What I don't want to see is Hinterland getting too wrapped up in worrying about the micromanagement of settings.  Isn't that something that mods should be for?

[Prestermatt]

9 hours ago, Wade said:

What I don't want to see is Hinterland getting too wrapped up in worrying about the micromanagement of settings.  Isn't that something that mods should be for?

Maybe.  But mods don't exist (officially) now, and even with Hinterland's blessing they would always be an extra hassle, making sure they still work with updates, etc.  Not everyone wants to deal with mods.

Quite frankly, I think Hinterland is already deep into setting micromanagment.    Given the sheer number of minor and obscure variables we already have access to in Custom, a Permadeath switch wouldn't be too much of a burden.

[mystifeid]

8 hours ago, Prestermatt said:

a Permadeath switch wouldn't be too much of a burden.

While I prefer permadeath and was disappointed in it's removal from story mode, the fact that it was removed from story mode suggests that it would also be easy to remove it from the sandbox. So why not make everyone happy and provide options to enable it in story mode and disable it in the sandbox.

What I would really like is for permadeath to be enabled by default across all modes (story and survival) and since people seem to want it, provide the option to play custom story/survival modes with it disabled.

[Dan_]

16 hours ago, mystifeid said:

What I would really like is for permadeath to be enabled by default across all modes (story and survival) and since people seem to want it, provide the option to play custom story/survival modes with it disabled.

This 1000x.

I understand that many players dislike the permadeath mechanic and I believe the game should offer the option to turn it off to appease those players but, I believe that permadeath is exactly what makes this game so enticing and hard to stop playing. It makes you second guess decisions and rethink strategies time and time again, not to mention that the game is at it's best at the very beginning so it's great to get the opportunity to start over frequently. 

[grrbear]

The first time I died, I was scooting down a really steep slope and was going a liiiiiitle too fast.  This was early in the game's development before they introduced sprains.  But I remember being so shocked and then laughing my a$$ off for being so careless.

The second time I died, I was foolish enough to think I could headshot a bear in a random encounter in the middle of nowhere.  He mauled me, I tried to stagger back to shelter, and died in the frozen wastes.  Foolishness rewarded.

The third time I died, I had just finished harvesting a deer when a blizzard started up, and I saw three wolves stalking me.  Decoys and flares did not save me, as I ended up fighting all three wolves, got lost in the blizzard, and bled out within sight of the Pleasant Valley farmhouse.

None of these experiences would have mattered if there was no permadeath.  The third death, in particular, was one of the greatest gaming experiences of my life as I thought I was screwed, my condition was dripping down to zero, I saw the farmhouse, and died forty feet from the porch door.  Permadeath raises the stakes of every decision, encourages careful planning, and keeps the adrenaline flowing.  I wouldn't want it any other way.

[Prestermatt]

1 hour ago, grrbear said:

None of these experiences would have mattered if there was no permadeath.

You know, I don't disagree with you on this.

My first death resulted from a raid on the Dam.  I was injured from dealing with Fluffy and had contracted Food Poisoning from a granola bar or something.  I remembered that I didn't have a bedroll (I had left it behind "to save weight"), so I had to decide if I was going to head to the closer logging camp (no trailers at the Dam yet), or go a little farther by the river to the lake and my base at the Camp Office.  Not familiar with the effects of poisoning yet, I stupidly chose the latter, and I got wolfed on the lake as I was staggering along with blurred vision. It was memorable.  I never leave my bedroll behind now.

But now I want to play a game that explores the whole map, and I'm lucky to get in 4 hours of playing a week.  So I like to back up every so often so it doesn't take me months to accomplish my goal.

[Carbon]

18 hours ago, Prestermatt said:

But now I want to play a game that explores the whole map, and I'm lucky to get in 4 hours of playing a week.  So I like to back up every so often so it doesn't take me months to accomplish my goal.

 This isn't really an argument against permadeath, with so many options available to you that would allow this objective to be satisfied. There are preexisting modes that are quite hospitable indeed as well as the ability to set up a custom game where particularly lethal aspects can be reduced or eliminated. These suit more casual play styles and it sounds like they fit your desires at this point in time. Hinterland have already betrayed some of their most closely-held aspects of the game as a compromise to players such as yourself with the addition of the custom game feature, something which not all that long ago was answered with a flat "no, we aren't making a customized experience". Well, they compromised and went so far as to allow one to completely disable the vast majority of lethal parameters and that still isn't enough? You can't have your cake and eat it too: you can't have the Interloper experience with a safety net.

 The trade off of disabling permadeath is simply too great and is contrary to the most fundamental nature of the game. It's called "The Long Dark" because regardless of how or when, the inevitable outcome is death. How long would one expect the game to go on until the land is utterly depleted of resources? Reload all you want but there is a finite limit on survival or, if this isn't true - and some have taken this to task with 1000+ days survived - then certainly on how much 'fun' the extreme long game might provide. It becomes a mundane rhythm after a while and that is yet another way to lose the magic in what the game offers. I'd rather die from a moose stomping me than walk off a cliff from boredom or even worse, simply abandon a run altogether. The fun is in the early game; I have started so many sandboxes and deleted them on the third week because that's when things stabilize and the risk of death - barring idiocy - sharply declines as does the thrill of the game. It isn't just me either; I would wager that the vast majority of TLD players feel the same way and those that don't back up their saves. Problem solved, but asking HL to do this for you isn't really fair; they have already given more than enough in this respect.

 There are other games out there that have permadeath but we feel that this isn't fair in TLD because of the investment, both emotionally and temporally, but again, these are not reasonable arguments against the feature. These are emotional responses to what almost universally seem to be the results of our own mistakes and we want the game to in effect accept those mistakes, but it doesn't and we don't like it. Well, that's tough, but that's the game.

 To be clear: if there were a way to toggle this feature without borking other things up, I am fine with it, but one cannot make the claim that it would in any way be the same game after having done so, and that is the issue I have with this discussion.  "The Short Bummer" is perhaps more a more fitting title for this mode. 

[chuckie]

Permadeath is easely avoided by pressing Alt+F4 in time, during animal attack. If you got into trouble, e.x. lost in the blizzard, you can just exit to main menu and continue from the last save. So basically only falling from big height is dangerous, need to Alt+F4 very quick.

So dying is mostly a matter of a players choice. You can play 'fair' and except challenge, or you can restart and have fun with a little bitter taste.

So, making permadeath optional is not a game changer, it just makes the things player can already do easier. 

To achieve 100% permadeath the save system should be modified significantly. Better to make it optional, maybe with some penalties.

[ingrobny]

On 4.1.2018 at 3:59 PM, hozz1235 said:

I mean, it's all about entertainment, right?

No, it is about survival and see how long you can survive in one playthrough and without permadeath, there wouldn't be a reason for trying to survive, because you can just reload a safe and continue as nothing ever happend.

I took backup for a while as well, but it made TLD boring, because i knew if i died i could load a save from the USB, so i deleted the backup and the long dark was not boring anymore, i don't want to die, because i have survived 340 something days and i'm aiming for the 500 day survived trophy, but it's more scary and terrifying now and i want to have it this way.