Revert rope climbing encumbrance to prior version

[Pillock]

The developers have clearly decided that they don't want players to be able to haul large amounts of stuff up and down ropes in one go. That's fair enough.

The hard block might feel a little inelegant, but what is the alternative? If they were to penalise players by causing encumbrance to tank your stamina part-way through the climb, what effect would that have? If you were going up, you'd have to come down again; if you were going down, you'd have to... go down...? Or maybe it could cause you to fall off the rope and die?

There has to be a punishment for taking your character beyond the limits that the game sets (ie. carrying a maximum of 30kg when fully rested), otherwise there's no point in having the limit at all. And the limit is a valuable game-balancing mechanism.

[JoE Smash]

And that makes three of us at least....it's a start! 

[Boston123]

I still don't know why the characters don't just take off their pack, and either lower it before them or haul it up after them.

[starfighter441]

I can't see why it isn't possible just to drop things over the edge, especially things that won't take any great amount of damage by doing so.  Like canned goods, climbing ropes, hides, etc.  Tossing your rifle wouldn't be a great idea, nor the lantern.  Have a chance of say 10% or so that the stuff will get damaged or lost for the stuff in the first category, and a good bit higher for the fragile items ( ok, I know that a Nr.4 Lee Enfield is anything but fragile, but tossing it off a cliff is still a bad idea).

[JoE Smash]

1 hour ago, starfighter441 said:

I can't see why it isn't possible just to drop things over the edge, especially things that won't take any great amount of damage by doing so.  Like canned goods, climbing ropes, hides, etc.  Tossing your rifle wouldn't be a great idea, nor the lantern.  Have a chance of say 10% or so that the stuff will get damaged or lost for the stuff in the first category, and a good bit higher for the fragile items ( ok, I know that a Nr.4 Lee Enfield is anything but fragile, but tossing it off a cliff is still a bad idea).

Yeah I tried dropping items off the ledge by getting really close....but no dice. That would be yet another plausible workaround. This is a pretty frustrating situation....

[JoE Smash]

1 hour ago, Boston123 said:

I still don't know why the characters don't just take off their pack, and either lower it before them or haul it up after them.

I suggested that in this thread, another separate thread, and Carbon suggested the same in a third thread. It is another good and totally plausible idea...

[ChillPlayer]

The limit didn't bother me much except that I too asked myself why I can't just throw my pack down a cliff. But OP has a point about TWM Summit. Due to these restriction there are only three ways - neither of them in the sense of TLD gameplay - to profit from going up there:

- speed run it, take as little as you can and trink coffee until you're up there, then bring down what you need
- make the summit your permanent home until you die
- try to climb down the mountain without a rope, which I once tried and succeeded but I broke virtually every bone and needed alot of painkillers.

The last idea though works in many other places quite well due to "crouch and be spiderman" behaviour of the engine since I play TLD, it's how I circumvent the climb-down limit.

So yeah, 30KG is a bit too low, I'd be in favor for the same limit as running, 40KG.

[Carbon]

6 hours ago, Pillock said:

The developers have clearly decided that they don't want players to be able to haul large amounts of stuff up and down ropes in one go. That's fair enough.

The hard block might feel a little inelegant, but what is the alternative? If they were to penalise players by causing encumbrance to tank your stamina part-way through the climb, what effect would that have? If you were going up, you'd have to come down again; if you were going down, you'd have to... go down...? Or maybe it could cause you to fall off the rope and die?

There has to be a punishment for taking your character beyond the limits that the game sets (ie. carrying a maximum of 30kg when fully rested), otherwise there's no point in having the limit at all. And the limit is a valuable game-balancing mechanism.

 "Inelegant" is a perfect way to describe the implementation. Nicely phrased.

 I will object to your all-or-nothing take on the situation though; encumbrance needn't chew through stamina at quite the rate you imply. More as @ChillPlayer says, a depletion rate more similar to that of moving encumbered, but somewhat harsher (climbing is harder than walking). I maintain that it would be better that than to simply deny action; I'd rather fall from a rope due to my own miscalculation than to not be given the option.

 The principle exists in the game already in the form of slower overall movement, greatly reduced running speed and a higher rate of overall energy depletion when encumbered. Applying this very same principle to climbing seems much more rational and again, places autonomy back in the hands of the player. Finally, if I choose to climb heavy, fall and die as a result, I have nobody to point a finger at but myself. As it stands, the developers have put themselves in the position of being the harrier.

 Anyway, I have said more than I intended to on this topic once again; its getting circular and this horse is well dead. I do hope the team reconsider, but its not my circus, they're not my monkeys.

[Miniwizard]

7 hours ago, Pillock said:

If they were to penalise players by causing encumbrance to tank your stamina part-way through the climb, what effect would that have?

and

4 minutes ago, Carbon said:

  I will object to your all-or-nothing take on the situation though; encumbrance needn't chew through stamina at quite the rate you imply. More as @ChillPlayer says, a depletion rate more similar to that of moving encumbered, but somewhat harsher (climbing is harder than walking). I maintain that it would be better that than to simply deny action; I'd rather fall from a rope due to my own miscalculation than to not be given the option.

Indeed, there is no reason for it to suddenly tank part-way through. It would just be a constant and slightly greater drain than being unencumbered.

However, following on from @Carbon, the point being is that it wouldn't prevent you from trying.. you would at least get part way up the rope before realising you would be unable to make it all the way, and thus can still head back down (providing your mental calculation is good enough to realise the folly of trying). Perhaps even on shorter rope climbs, you would still just be able to make it - whereas when unencumbered, you could make it very easily with plenty of stamina remaining.

Simply having a forced hard limit, just makes it feel like the game mechanics are slapping you in face.

[Pillock]

1 minute ago, Miniwizard said:

Indeed, there is no reason for it to suddenly tank part-way through. It would just be a constant and slightly greater drain than being unencumbered.

However, following on from @Carbon, the point being is that it wouldn't prevent you from trying.. you would at least get part way up the rope before realising you would be unable to make it all the way, and thus can still head back down (providing your mental calculation is good enough to realise the folly of trying). Perhaps even on shorter rope climbs, you would still just be able to make it - whereas when unencumbered, you could make it very easily with plenty of stamina remaining.

Simply having a forced hard limit, just makes it feel like the game mechanics are slapping you in face.

If the game allowed you to climb encumbered, yet didn't inflict a penalty for doing so, it would make a mockery of the weight and stamina system. It needs to be there.

The developers have decided that players shouldn't be able to climb successfully when encumbered, in the same way that you can't sprint when you're exhausted. The only alternative that I can think of to a hard block on encumbered climbing, as we have now, is instead to cause a fall from the rope when your stamina runs out. Personally, I think that would be far more annoying in gameplay terms than what we have now. You should never be forced to learn the game through trial and death (although that is probably the reality of the experience of most players); trial and failure or trial and injury, maybe, but there should always be the chance to recover from your errors. I don't see how the game could possibly teach the player not to climb up or down ropes when over the weight limit without either using this hard block or throwing the player off the rope. If you are making a ascent, you can abort and go down again if you run out of stamina; if you are making a descent, you cannot abort and go up. If the game allowed you to continue \and finish a descent even when you ran out of stamina, there would be no penalty for breaking the climbing 'rules'.

Allowing players to take off the backpack and lower it down would be nice, but it might upset the balance that the developers are looking for, as well as requiring a whole raft of new art, animations and mechanics to support it which, again, they probably don't feel the need to prioritise.

[Miniwizard]

2 minutes ago, Pillock said:

If the game allowed you to climb encumbered, yet didn't inflict a penalty for doing so, it would make a mockery of the weight and stamina system. It needs to be there.

I don't think anyone was arguing for there being no penalty.

If not the simple fact of being unlikely or less-likely to make it to the top being a penalty, then many other penalties have been suggested.

3 minutes ago, Pillock said:

The developers have decided that players shouldn't be able to climb successfully when encumbered, in the same way that you can't sprint when you're exhausted

You are comparing different mechanics. You can still run when encumbered. You can't when you have a broken ankle or are exhausted. Nor should you be able to climb under these circumstances. You should however be allowed to try climbing if you are encumbered. You just probably won't make it to the top safely as stamina drain would be quicker. Much like running unencumbered vs running encumbered. 

7 minutes ago, Pillock said:

You should never be forced to learn the game through trial and death (although that is probably the reality of the experience of most players); trial and failure or trial and injury, maybe, but there should always be the chance to recover from your errors. I don't see how the game could possibly teach the player not to climb up or down ropes when over the weight limit without either using this hard block or throwing the player off the rope.

Sorry, I fail to see the difference here between (for example) running a few hundred meters to a rope and then immediately climbing it when you haven't fully regained all you stamina - thus trying to climb a rope and only likely to get part way up, vs. resting at the bottom of a rope for maximum stamina and then climbing but overburdened.

Both would have the same effect - you would probably run out of stamina before reaching the top. In your case, you would probably fall and die, but most players can see how much rope is left to climb, and they can see how quickly their stamina bar is draining. It's not all that hard to judge whether you have a chance to make it to the top when you are 1/4 the way up and still have over 3/4 of your stamina or about 1/2 the way up and still have over half your stamina? If the answers to either of these observable questions are definately no - it's time to reverse course and save your own life.

Going down a rope barely uses any stamina anyway so it is much less of an issue. However, you could suffer rope burns to your hands (needing to be treated much as a fire burn), land harshly and sprain your ankle, take condition loss.. many options are available. You could in fact still run into the same problem you mentioned even with the current weight limit, so your excuse doesn't really hold up. You may have been running to the rope and have almost no stamina left before quickly beginning your descent...

[Carbon]

27 minutes ago, Pillock said:

If the game allowed you to climb encumbered, yet didn't inflict a penalty for doing so, it would make a mockery of the weight and stamina system. It needs to be there.

The developers have decided that players shouldn't be able to climb successfully when encumbered, in the same way that you can't sprint when you're exhausted. The only alternative that I can think of to a hard block on encumbered climbing, as we have now, is instead to cause a fall from the rope when your stamina runs out. Personally, I think that would be far more annoying in gameplay terms than what we have now. You should never be forced to learn the game through trial and death (although that is probably the reality of the experience of most players); trial and failure or trial and injury, maybe, but there should always be the chance to recover from your errors. I don't see how the game could possibly teach the player not to climb up or down ropes when over the weight limit without either using this hard block or throwing the player off the rope. If you are making a ascent, you can abort and go down again if you run out of stamina; if you are making a descent, you cannot abort and go up. If the game allowed you to continue \and finish a descent even when you ran out of stamina, there would be no penalty for breaking the climbing 'rules'.

Allowing players to take off the backpack and lower it down would be nice, but it might upset the balance that the developers are looking for, as well as requiring a whole raft of new art, animations and mechanics to support it which, again, they probably don't feel the need to prioritise.

 I don't think anyone is arguing for the removal of encumbrance nor the penalty it inflicts. I'm certainly not and I'm not arguing for an abort fail safe either. One has to do some quick mental calculations/estimations, as with everything else in the game. If you're wrong, then suffer.

 Now, isn't TLD all about trial and error? How long did your first run last? It was hours for me and why? Ignorance and learning with early errors often resulting in death. I think this summarizes most people's early runs with the game and I don't see why climbing encumbered should be exempt from this general idea or have such a high place in that scheme so as to be set aside.

 As for the balance the devs are looking for, well, the game was one way through the vast majority of development, then a sudden change. Seems a long time for a mechanic to linger if it wasn't part of the plan. No, the change indicates and after-thought, one implemented in a somewhat crude manner.

EDIT: Seems like we are piling on you @Pillock! Not so...just talking.

[JAFO]

9 hours ago, Miniwizard said:

Severe rope burns on your hands from slipping down with too much weight

Only if you're not wearing gloves, please.. with leather gloves and gauntlets being tougher, and taking less damage.

[Miniwizard]

Just now, JAFO said:

Only if you're not wearing gloves, please.. with leather gloves and gauntlets being tougher, and taking less damage.

Hehe.. well, at least severe condition loss to the gloves

[JoE Smash]

1 hour ago, Miniwizard said:

Hehe.. well, at least severe condition loss to the gloves

Well at least SOME condition loss to the gloves...

[JoE Smash]

I just had a new wonderful situation due to the new mechanic that just freaked me the hell out.

I went down in the ravine to get the OTHER flare pistol. I slept down there overnight in the cave for NINE hours.

I woke up and started climbing the rope first thing without drinking coffee and obviously having less than 30kilos (but not by much) on me. I started off great. About 10 feet from the resting cliff I was barely below half stamina, but it was dropping fast. I slipped and barely made it to the cliff. I get on the cliff to find my sleep bar had dropped to the equivalent of like two hours of sleep. I stand on the ledge for a bit to regain my stamina bar. I click on the rope to find out I can't climb because I am now so tired I can only carry 25lbs, even though my rest bar was still white (barely) and not red. I drink a coffee now and drop some tinder and things I don't really need. I still can't climb the rope because I too heavy I consider drinking my last coffee or sleeping.

I though about sleeping on the ledge with my bed roll, but that made me nervous because I recently read about how sleeping on ledges can make it so you can't climb the rope at all because the game expects you to either be clicking on the rope from the top or the bottom after saving, not the middle.

Instead I quit the game, reloaded my save from inside the cave, slept for an additional two hours, and drank a coffee before touching the rope. I still ended up resting on the ledge, but there were no more shenanigans...

[Miniwizard]

@JoE Smash Ouch! Lucky you managed to quit out and reload it ok - and not having suffered one of those magic sprained wrists while getting onto the ledge (triggering a save update)

[JoE Smash]

2 minutes ago, Miniwizard said:

@JoE Smash Ouch! Lucky you managed to quit out and reload it ok - and not having suffered one of those magic sprained wrists while getting onto the ledge (triggering a save update)

Oh dude, I didn't even know that crap could happen. I would have snapped my laptop in half if it saved there....

[Carbon]

 2 climbs and you're trashed, hitting the bottom eyelid even if fully rested at the outset and well under-weight. Climbing is not only seemingly discouraged, but highly punitive if utilized, yet we have a map - a great map otherwise - that hinges on this very mechanic.

 

[JoE Smash]

2 hours ago, Carbon said:

 2 climbs and you're trashed, hitting the bottom eyelid even if fully rested at the outset and well under-weight. Climbing is not only seemingly discouraged, but highly punitive if utilized, yet we have a map - a great map otherwise - that hinges on this very mechanic.

 

TWO CLIMBS?! Dude, I got one. I think it depends on the length of the rope. Apparently the rope to the ravine basin requires you to be fully rested to make it to the top and that's using a ledge to rest on. You will promptly be going to bed again immediately afterwards....shortest work day ever. Maybe the rate of exhaustion whilst climbing should be looked at and adjusted....

[Boston123]

21 hours ago, Miniwizard said:

 

Going down a rope barely uses any stamina anyway so it is much less of an issue. However, you could suffer rope burns to your hands (needing to be treated much as a fire burn), land harshly and sprain your ankle, take condition loss.. many options are available. You could in fact still run into the same problem you mentioned even with the current weight limit, so your excuse doesn't really hold up. You may have been running to the rope and have almost no stamina left before quickly beginning your descent...

There are a multitude of simple and very easy knots one can tie to prevent both of those occurrences. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlinespike_hitch

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowline

Hell, there is a very easy knot that would prevent the character from falling at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_bowline

When I first realized the character was freeclimbing up a rope, I facepalmed so hard my eyes popped out and rolled around on the floor.

Our characters enter the wilderness with less practical knowledge than a 12 year old, apparently.