Revert rope climbing encumbrance to prior version

[JoE Smash]

As I have stated several times now, I'm new. I've been watching old videos of Timberwolf Mountain. I want to go up there someday soon and loot it, but I don't know if it is even possible the way ropes are now with the 30 kilo hard cap to get back down. 

We are going to have to spend DAYS sleeping and climbing up and down each rope over and over with 5-10 kilos at a time to get the loot from the tail section down the mountain. I can see climbing limits on climbing up, as climbing up with more than 30 kilos would be very hard, but sliding or rappelling down should be easier and allow 40-45kilos.

You need to either add a reppelling animation and/or increase the going down weight limit, or allow us to hoist gear down a rope by lowering it by hand. You spend all that time and effort climbing ropes and sleeping in caves to get to the legendary loot of the tail section, but now you can't get any of it down the damn mountain.

I am probably not even going to go to Timberwolf Mountain or climb to the tail section unless this is changed in some way. I don't want to go all the way up there, open all those boxes like it is Christmas, and then realize I am trapped in some terrible Twilight Zone episode...where I get all this great stuff but I am trapped on top of the mountain with all of it....lolz

I'm not looking forward to it, or planning on doing it unless something changes with ropes and encumbrance.

Anyone agree/disagree?

Please don't yell at me....I know I complain about encumbrance a lot in general. This time I am accepting my character's encumbrance, but I am frustrated with the new climbing max encumbrance....

 

[nicko]

Howdy, i did not think the rope climbing has changed recently, then I guess anything can in alpha builds so sure they will probably be tweaked.

Where does it state you can only go down with less than 30kg?  i still can do it.

and you say you have not even tried the climbs / decents so I guess your just stirring the pot.

[JoE Smash]

2 minutes ago, nicko said:

Howdy, i did not think the rope climbing has or will be changed, then I guess anything can in alpha builds. where does it state you can only go down with 30kg? i still can do it. and you say you have not even tried it so I guess your just stirring the pot.

I haven't tried Timberwolf Mountain, I have climbed a rope in game and there is a 30 kilo hard cap on climbing now, meaning if you have a gram over 30 kilos in your pack it says you are too encumbered to climb. So I guess you are the one stiring the pot as usual by saying jerky things like you do everyday when I post something. Your reading comprehension is as astounding as always...

[nicko]

1 hour ago, JoE Smash said:

I want to go up there someday soon and loot it, but I don't know if it is even possible the way ropes are now with the 30 kilo hard cap to get back down. 

to go up you mean? going down should be easier?

4 minutes ago, JoE Smash said:

I haven't tried Timberwolf Mountain, I have climbed a rope in game and there is a 30 kilo hard cap on climbing now, meaning if you have a gram over 30 kilos in your pack it says you are too encumbered to climb. So I guess you are the one stiring the pot as usual by saying jerky things like you do everyday when I post something. Your reading comprehension is as astounding as always...

ok. your writing is outstanding.

[JoE Smash]

5 minutes ago, nicko said:

to go up you mean? going down should be easier?

ok. your writing is outstanding.

It actually is....you seem to have trouble understanding just about anything I say. If you go back and read the first post it makes total sense, and I don't see anything that could be confusing. It's almost like you go out of your way to interpret it in an irrational fashion.

[nicko]

maybe, i think i just seen a new post from you which might make more sense.

[JoE Smash]

1 minute ago, nicko said:

to you maybe, i think i just seen a new post from you which might make more sense.

Ok Nicko, yesterday we seemed to have the same issue. You misinterpreted me, then you were a jerk, I reported you, you apologized for being a jerk, I wrote a second report asking them to disregard my earlier report because we made up, and now it's a new day and we are doing the same dance. I am tired of this dance.

I guess we just have a failure to communicate? So how about we cease communications? I won't reply to things you say, and you no longer reply to things I say. Can we try that going forward, because I don't feel like arguing semantics with you every single day I attempt to talk in the forums...

[nicko]

wow i get called a jerk again for no reason twice in two days? and you don't get reported? feel free to report me again.

BTW I have no sun dance and no issue with you and ok I will try not to respond to your posts. (unless your the jerk?)

[JoE Smash]

2 minutes ago, nicko said:

wow i get called a jerk again for no reason twice in two days? feel free to report me.

BTW I have no sun dance and no issue with you and ok will try not to respond to your posts.

Dude, I am NOT calling you a jerk, I was reiterating a play by play of what transpired yesterday. Like I said, I retracted my report and I have NO intention of reporting you today.

I just don't want to argue with you everyday in the forums. I want to make some suggestions, get some feedback, and play the game without being accused of things like "stirring the pot" (today's accusation) or "spamming the forum with questions." (yesterday's accusation from you)

I think the real issue is your accusations. Why are you accusing anyone of anything? Are you a forum moderator? Is it your place to point out forum spamming? How is it stirring the pot to question a mechanic I encountered yesterday in Forlorn Muskeg while trying to get down a rope I placed after exploring the waterfall cave. I had like 35 kilos on me only to discover I now have to decide what stuff I can dump on the ground and abandon to get down the rope with only 30 kilos on me.

I took that experience in Forlorn Muskeg yesterday and imagined how terrible it is going to be trying to loot the tail section in Timberwolf Mountain. I don't even want to go loot it now, because there will probably be like 60 kilos of loot up there and it will probably take six trips of ten kilos at a time for each rope. I think there are like three different ropes to get from the summit back to the hut. It will mean ascending and descending each rope like six times a piece on the way back.

 

[Miniwizard]

1 hour ago, nicko said:

Howdy, i did not think the rope climbing has changed recently, then I guess anything can in alpha builds so sure they will probably be tweaked.

Where does it state you can only go down with less than 30kg?  i still can do it.

and you say you have not even tried the climbs / decents so I guess your just stirring the pot.

 

I also can't climb or descend any rope when my inventory is even a fraction over 30kg. (Having just tested). 100% condition, saked, some calories on board

Are you still running an older version or a test build? Might want to watch out with accusations of 'stirring the pot' etc.

[JoE Smash]

Thank you Miniwizard. What are your thoughts on Timberwolf Mountain looting?

Would you like to see a way to attach your backpack to the rope and hoist it up after you climb the rope, and/or a way to lower your pack with the rope first and then climb down?

That was my suggestion in second thread and I don't feel it's very unreasonable. I mean it kind of makes more sense to do that than to try to climb a rope with 30 kilos attached to your back really...

[Miniwizard]

Well, I think many players going there, are probably doing so early on, or are playing on interloper difficulty. In such cases, their inventory is likely to be quite light. Even after looting all the stuff up there. Interlopers wouldn't be weighed down with heavy tools such as the hatchet or rifle for instance. Most would also be travelling light to aid in the ascent - with minimal food and plenty of coffee - to aid the cllimbs and leave space to collect things before returning to their base camp as quickly as possible.

I don't really like the idea of adding a new mechanic into the game (needing to attach/hoist stuff) I'd rather just see the hard limit removed, but encumberance having an effect on your stamina loss (going up and down). Perhaps this could also be mitigated by burning excess calories - i.e. another benefit of eating at times other than just before sleeping.

[JoE Smash]

Ok, I was just trying to come up with a workaround. Since they just added the cap, I figured it was doubtful that they would remove it.

I thought it would be kind of fun to add the raising and lowering of your pack. I envisioned seeing your feet pressed up against the type of rock formation you can tie the rope to, and sitting on the ground either pulling the rope towards you or lowering it. Just another thing to waste stamina and rest on, lol.

[Miniwizard]

It would also bring in a whole range of problems. For instance what if after lowering your pack (or hoisting it) you realised you didn't have enough food/water/whatever to make the climb yourself. Now you are separated from all your supplies... 

It would also mean possibly some new animation, certainly new menu options, new graphical stuff to show your pack on the ground at the bottom...

Apart from that, there is the potential 'realism' aspect. The mountaineering rope is just that. It is a single rope. Not a pulley system.

Appreciate the idea for combatting the new restriction, but far simpler would be to amend or remove the restriction itself. Especially if the player is only slightly encumbered, as opposed to severely overburdened. On a short rope, they should be able to do it within their stamina limits, but on longer climbs would quickly run into fatigue issues.

[JoE Smash]

You don't really need a pulley system to do what I was saying, but I do agree with the hungry/thirsty bit. I didn't think of that and it would suck, but I would just pull my bag back up if that was the case. Remember out of the 30 kilos we carry, like 20 of it is clothes we have on. The backpack would only weigh 10-20 kilos, which is like 20-50 pounds....an amount that I can easily lift with or without a rope. The edge of the cliff is the fulcrum. I wasn't envisioning a pulley system m8...

[Miniwizard]

@JoE Smash  Yeah.. I can see how it would work with lowering.. but hoisting??

[JoE Smash]

Not remembering to eat and drink BEFORE climbing would be a pretty noob mistake, like forgetting to do so before sleeping. That's on you to remember/get into the habbit of doing that.

Yeah, for hoisting the edge is still the fulcrum. Like I said in an earlier post, I envisioned your feet up against the big rock the rope is tied to, facing the cliff and using your back and arms to pull the rope and your pack up. Like doing a seated row. I can easily do a seated row of 150lbs. Like 20-30 reps. I had to do them for physical therapy. It gets a little to heavy for me over 210lbs. Lateral pull downs (if we had a pulley) I can easily do over 300lbs. Planet Fitness only goes to 320lbs. Once I had the girl behind the desk get on the counter weight and I lifted her with the 320lbs...

[Miniwizard]

Ah yes.. silly me. Was thinking about how you would hoist it up ahead of yourself, rather than pulling it up afterwards. Feel kinda dumb now!

However, point being that perhaps up the top, you realise you don't have the strength/calories/condition to hoist it up after you - and the items you would need to do so are in the bag. Another possibility is that you almost make it to the top, but realise it's just slightly out of your grasp and perhaps need that extra coffee or a stim from your bag for the last 10 feet. Or there's a wolf at the top which you couldn't previously see, but now all your flares/rifle/whatever are at the bottom in your pack...

Regardless, it would still add unnecessary complication to what could be a very simple issue. Just remove/rework the restriction that was recently imposed. Additional calories burned, additional condition loss, possible injury to hands from rope burn...

[Carbon]

 I think this thread was quite definitive regarding opinion about the changes to climbing. Might be of interest too you @JoE Smash.

 

[Miniwizard]

@Carbon That's a great thread - and you made some awesome comments on it!

[JoE Smash]

1 hour ago, Carbon said:

 I think this thread was quite definitive regarding opinion about the changes to climbing. Might be of interest too you @JoE Smash.

 

Thanks @Carbon it would appear you feel the way I do...

[Carbon]

 Thanks @JoE Smash + @Miniwizard. I am not sure if I made the argument in that thread, but the climbing mechanic seems to indicate a deeper potential problem with bringing in new ideas, and that is the question of retroactively fitting the game. My dismay over the situation at TWM isn't just personal displeasure but that he changes to climbing simply defeat - or heavily skew - the risk/reward balance of the map. The change seems to betray the map at a design level making it stand out horribly.

 Anyhow, I don't think it will change, so adapt, right?

[JoE Smash]

13 hours ago, Carbon said:

Anyhow, I don't think it will change, so adapt, right?

Yeah, I don't know that it will change, but I hope that if enough of us continue voicing our displeasure with this unclear change to climbing that they will listen, the devs and forum moderators claim to listen.

To be clear I don't even have issue with being too heavy to climb up. I would much rather it wasn't a flat no immersion breaking mechanic (like you stated) as it is now. It could be more of a hidden mechanic where if you attempt to climb with much more than 30 kilos, (like with sprinting up to 40 kilos) you can still do it but you tire quicker, making resting on available ledges necessary. With 40 kilos there would be no way to make the climb in one go, you would get tired too fast and then start slipping.

Going down should definitely allow more weight, as sliding or rappelling down a rope is way easier than going up. The weight limit going down should be possible all the way up to the maximum walking weight, which I think is like 60 kilos.

I don’t know why they randomly decided to change this, I don't like that it appears to be a hidden change that was never stated, and I hope they revert it. Maybe it was an accident?

If it was done intentionally, I feel we should keep fighting for it to be reverted. It makes TWM pointless as it currently stands.

The game is still Alpha, but things can still be changed even if it was finished.

[Carbon]

42 minutes ago, JoE Smash said:

If it was done intentionally, I feel we should keep fighting for it to be reverted. It makes TWM pointless as it currently stands.

 Well, not pointless, but exasperating. The Long Grind.

[Miniwizard]

I feel it was a quick and 'cheap' fix to a problem I don't really think existed. A quick bit of code to create a hard limit and simply forbid the action rather than looking into the maths of fatigue and stamina etc. Perhaps some players were climbing ropes with completely unrealistic burdens by abusing coffee or stims? But in my book, even that is not really 'abuse' of the mechanics, as it is using up very valuable resources in the process.

But as @Carbon mentioned, in a couple of the most compelling points against the change, it does impose upon player choice, risk versus reward, break imersion, and it does work against the rest of the design of TWM (and to a much lesser degree, other areas).

Severe rope burns on your hands from slipping down with too much weight, chance of not making it all the way due to increased stamina loss, added condition loss, all would have been far preferential.

I too remain hopeful that one day this will be altered, but sadly don't expect it to be any time soon.