Nice game....however development seems fairly slow for a 20+ person team


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I just discovered this game two days ago on Steam and I have already logged more than 20 hours on it. It is addictive. My favorite part of games is finding stuff I need and accomplishing goals. Even in Sandbox with no campaign, no NPCs to interact with, and no quests, the game still has a goal....survival....and daily I give myself quests on what I want to try to accomplish each day.

My girlfriend jumped when I screamed, "YES! I FOUND A JACKET!!! I think it was the most excited I have been about finding anything in a game, and soon after I found a vest and a wind shell and I starteled her again. (Obviously not Interloper...I perfer medium difficulty, lol)

This is a really swell game and I have been gaming since DOS.

What disappoints me most is how long it has been in production and how little has been added in comparison to Indy games with one or two person teams. You guys have soooo much more help than a couple of people and Hinterland has ONE game...this one, The Long Dark.

I'm sure you probably did not start off with a 22 person team, (by my count under Meet The Team) but now that you DO have that many people, and the base code for the game is seemingly finished and bugs have been squashed left and right, I can't understand how you are not hammering out the additions.

You added predators and prey, tweeked their pathing and behaviors....now why aren't there more? Where are the squirrels, and raccoons, and otters and beavers, and moose?

You added a forge and metal work and you can flatten an end of a bar to make a really bush-league improv axe and knife, but you can't add a little more code to flatten one end of a bar to make an improv prybar?

You added animal crafting, but really you should be able to make every and all clothing slots with any one type of animal or all of them. I can make bunny gloves, but I cannot make bunny boots and pants? Only deer boots and pants? Oh really? Why? Flesh it out man... I want to wear a bear as a hat, not as a codpiece... that scares the ladies man...they don't want a bear jaw down there...

So you want to add a bullet press somewhere...probably in that old barn...that sounds great. People are complaining about the logistics of it, but it's a game it doesn't have to make total realistic sense, just partial sense. You have caves with coal, just add a couple more caves, or add veins to existing caves of stinky yellow sulfur and saltpeter to make homemade gunpowder. Some places like that barn again, might have a few cannisters of black powder around....you know for stump bustin, or the logging camp offices. You save your old brass fired jackets from rounds like in Fallout and you bring em to the hand bullet press in the barn with some black powder and/or homemade gunpowder from mining and melt some scrap into shot. Bam bullets! Not super realistic....but a fine mechanic for a GAME. Don't forget to model a new tool....the Pickaxe for mining.

While we are on tools, as MANY others have already stated, before man forged iron, man made stone tools by cracking rocks together. Many crafting survival games have a stone version of everything stone axe, stone knife, stone hammer, stone pick axe, stone arrowheads. Get on it already....obviously the durability should go down about twice as fast per use, but it is much simpler to craft replacements, and no forge or coal needed.

And where's all the flint rocks on the shores of rivers with the regular little rocks for bunny slaying. Man was making fire with flint for THOUSANDS of years....yet I need to find a match or sunlight in an environment that is either dark or snowing 90% of the time.

You guys have something soooo close to perfect, but you are focusing on all the wrong things. 

Lastly there needs to be more food to forage i.e. nut and berries etc. I tried Interloper and depending on where they drop you and how unlucky you are starvation is pretty much inevitable. At least in my experience even with the hibernating food/sleep maneuver. I started over by the Draft Dodger Hut. Ran to the barn after waiting out a storm becsuse I only had a T-shirt and pants...no hat or gloves... and then ran to the farm house and found one can of peaches and two candy bars or granola bars on the whole two days of dying.

Allowing more foraging and primitive stone tool crafting and flint finding would have made my Interloper run possible. As it was, it was just a slow road to starved. 

Just my thoughts as a 40 year old lover of all games....including your game. I just wish you would flesh it out a bit more and add ALL the things I have suggested above, I really hope at least one of your staff reads this and shares it with the others.

Thank you for your time, patience, and anticipated cooperation. 

This is my first, last, and only rant on the direction of your game and what I strongly feel should be added...

JoE Smash (my superhero name)

PS A cargo sled to pull more gear when hopping maps would be nice, I'd love some sleigh dogs too instead of horses like you are planning for an update, but I guess I could settle for a pack horse or mule...

PPS I don't want to sound sexist...but the male character could PROBABLY carry 10-15 more kilos than the female character, maybe make the female run faster for slightly longer and allow her to be a little more stealthy when sneaking due to smaller frame and less weight on the snow....it makes sense...I think. Then there would be a legitimate reason to pick either sex based on what bonus ability you want. I am clearly a packrat in all games so I would prefer carrying more...

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3 hours ago, JoE Smash said:

PPS I don't want to sound sexist...but the male character could PROBABLY carry 10-15 more kilos than the female character, maybe make the female run faster for slightly longer and allow her to be a little more stealthy when sneaking due to smaller frame and less weight on the snow....it makes sense...I think. Then there would be a legitimate reason to pick either sex based on what bonus ability you want. I am clearly a packrat in all games so I would prefer carrying more...

You do realise that doing this would bring down the wrath of all the SJWs and PC culture upon this game and Hinterland, completely slandering it and throwing out mass negative sexist press coverage for the title. Sad, but true, despite the capability of the 'average' male vs the 'average' female. I can just imagine the field day someone like the detestable Anita Sarkesian would have on something like this being put into the game. 

However, certain points of their criticism I would agree with. There really shouldn't be any difference between the two. The player should be able to choose whichever gender they feel comfortable playing without it having any affect on the gameplay. It is in part purely cosmetic, in part auditory. Yes you can take the generalisations and 'averages' of both sexes, but there really isn't a need to force advantages or disadvantes simply based on the sex chosen for your avatar in the game. A female gamer, for instance, shouldn't be forced into playing a more stealthy game simply because she prefers to play with a character she can better identify with.

In essence what you would be asking for is various types of character. Who each have certain starting advantages and disadvantages. You could be a well built guy, or a sneakier leaner guy. A butch female, or one of a more athletic build. Perhaps such a choice would be about your previous life up until this point. Were you a lumberjack or a shopkeeper? A hunter or a mechanic. Such a choice could affect various starting skills, equipment and clothing, physical capabilities etc.

 

Every seemingly good idea, usually has many unseen negatives or problems along with it. Your dogs and sleigh for example. Sure, it might be fun to do a couple of times in-game - moving all your supplies around. But what about needing to feed the huskies? Where would you acquire them from? What happens when you ascend one of the mountain ropes?

 

As for comparing 'speed of progress' and size of the team, with some other indie projects, you are trying to compare apples and oranges. Sure.. both are fruit, but that's where the similarities end. Some projects are far easier to make progress and changes far more noticeable, other projects require huge amounts of change and testing to make improvements far more noticeable. Some companies will constantly release 'works in progress' others wait for their internal and controlled external testing to iron out most of the issues first. Some developers let communities change the entire initial vision for a game and implement many suggestions despite the overall effect of such changes, some work hard to find a way to merge the reason of a change to something that would fit within their own aims and desires. Personally I think this game has changed phenominally in just the last 6 months. Particularly with respect to 'polish' which is a vastly underestimated percentage of a projects development time.

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I understand you, and I would also like all of that stuff and tons of other stuff to be added but this isn't that easy. I like the way that they work on the game. When they decide to add something to the game they don't rush it and make something broken and unfinished, they take their time and make it perfect. If you just think about all the layouts and ways they did the maps, placed and made items and animals, it all takes a lot of thinking, creativity and time. I will rather wait a little bit longer and have a finished game with little to no bugs than a rushed game with broken or unfinished content. Hinterland is a awesome team that listen to the community and shape most of the game by doing that. That is a thing that makes me like this game more than other games and community's. 

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I get you too, and I understand. I don't want it rushed and buggy. I am not a coder or a programmer. I have seen code and I know it looks like Japanese to me. Some of the stuff can't be hard to tweak though. Like the forged prybar. I can't see modeling a metal bar, copy and pasting the animation for the normal prybar and tweeking the decay value per use as a month long project. At best that should take a 22 man team a day or two to implement. How long ago did they add forging to the game? It's like they have no plan or motivation to do it in the first place or it would be done already.

The same with tweaking clothes crafting. They need to add a few more clothing models, type up a description and alter the current crafting code to change how many hides and guts of which animals are needed to make which things. Again they aren't starting from scratch or the ground up. They already wrote the base code, they just need to tweak it to add more variability.

The same with adding more prey and predator animals. Those will take more art department and modeling and pathing tweaking, but the base code and behaviors are already in the game and functional. Like I said I think adding more animals would be more work intensive than the above two requests, but it still wouldn't be as hard as it was before they started from scratch with no animal models, pathing routines, and fight or flight behaviors.

Adding stone tools would be as hard as adding more animal crafting choices for clothes. The animations for each tool are already in there except the pickaxe.  

Like I said I get where you are coming from and I get where they were coming from. I think now they must be busting their butts on getting this story mission aspect hammered out. I really hope once that's up in August, they will squash bugs in September. Once that's done I hope they remember to double back to adding some more stone crafting, animal clothes crafting, the improv prybar, and more foraging for nuts and berries before they move to the bullet press, and horses projects. 

Making totally new ideas from the ground up like the storyline missions, and adding totally new content like bullet manufacturing and horses will take way longer than adding the simpler things I feel should have been added in the first place.

I just hope they assign some people and time to getting it done sooner rather than later, because it really should already be in there.....but that's just one man's opinion...

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While we understand the desire and wish for this or that item or feature, please keep in mind that the team is working off their own plan for scope and quality (informed by the community). Not everything will make it into the game just because it theoretically could be added. And yes, we're hard at work polishing the game for Wintermute launch in August. After that we'll be revisiting some other items that haven't surfaced yet and see what's possible or necessary. 

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Thanks for the answer Hinterland, please just share the ideas with the group at least please. I know you have a scope and vision and adding stuff. I just don't know why it is so hard to forge a prybar, and why I can't craft boots out of bunny, only gloves. Why can't we craft a deerskin cap with ear flaps and socks and a shirt. Please consider rational and simple requests. 

Thanks!

JoE Smash

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6 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

Also pay mind that this title has to code in so many diffefent architectures... xbox, ps4, pc, mac, <-- ive never seen an indie game do something like that

Unity is the game engine that powers TLD, multiplatform is one of the larger selling points. Further, lots of Indie game that utilize Unity come to mind.. 7 Days to Die, Concoles, PC, Mac, and Linux clients.. Albion Online, PC, Mac, Linux, Android, and IOS after launch.. Both kickstarted Indie titles.

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 Let's not believe that developers use Unity off-the-shelf, as it were. Unity is merely the foundation or base to which developers make many changes within the engine to suit their needs and wants. Multiplayer really needs to be a focus from the outset to work effectively; its not the kind of thing that is easily tacked on later, as it affects many aspects of the game: overall strategy and even map design.

 I'd like a co-op experience with TLD, but I can see how that clearly wasn't ever in the plan and would require a ton of work to make it happen.

 An interesting AMA on Reddit with Raphael some time ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/thelongdark/comments/2wkj2f/hey_im_raphael_founder_and_creative_director_at/

 But we are off-topic here. :)

 On-topic, for people like me who came to the party comparatively late (this year), things have been moving along well. The nearly 7000 people who kickstarted this back in 2013 though...yep, I can understand their sentiments.

 I have been gaming for a long, long time and I can attest to TLD having hands-down one of the most distinctive art styles and compelling gaming experiences I have ever had in a game, certainly as an adult anyway (nothing can compete with nostalgia). This is the result of doing it right, of not compromising or settling for anything less than what the vision requires, culling and adding to a small, probably decentralized team as necessary, working with Unity updates, etc. Aside from this, sandbox is but an appetizer; we haven't even seen the meal yet, so I think it's a bit early to talk about time and returns.

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On 6/26/2017 at 11:29 PM, Adam12341 said:

they take their time and make it perfect

Like hunger exploit ,that allows player to live off 500 calories a day by eating only once before going to bed. Or the fact that sticks(flares, tinder plugs), always drop facing in same direction ? Or several other critical exploits that have been around for as long as i can remember ?

17 hours ago, Carbon said:

 Let's not believe that developers use Unity off-the-shelf, as it were. Unity is merely the foundation or base to which developers make many changes within the engine to suit their needs and wants. Multiplayer really needs to be a focus from the outset to work effectively; its not the kind of thing that is easily tacked on later, as it affects many aspects of the game: overall strategy and even map design.

Are you trying to imply that other developers use "Unity off-the-shelf" ? Because absolutely everyone, who deserve to be called developer, make extensive modificatinions to met their needs. Also, multiplayer games are considerably harder to make, compared to solo games, as there is a whole huge additional layer to them. Not to mention considerable higher attention to balancing and details.

17 hours ago, Carbon said:

Aside from this, sandbox is but an appetizer; we haven't even seen the meal yet, so I think it's a bit early to talk about time and returns.

Another completely unsupported conjecture and in most games free-roam is what determines longevity of the game. Also judging game based on somethign that have not being released yet is like being in perpetual state of hype. And we all know how those tend to end. I only judge what i cant experience, not some idealized, completely unfounded vision of thing that are somewhere over the horizon.

16 hours ago, CalNieDaGtarGuy said:

TLD has one of the best initial UIs I've ever seen: nothing. Unless you are looking at an item, you screen shows literally nothing, which I love. There is no better way to immerse me in the game. I can't think of another game that is this way.

I know il get a lot of flak for it, but you are *indisticntive muttering* ignorant. You are one of those people who consider lack of UI to me "immersive" or "realistic", even tho its as immersive as being blind deaf and having cipa. Its an ultimate absurdity, as it refers to it opposite.

In real life humans have several primary senses, that are responsible for out perception and how we experience world. Sight, smell, hearing, taste and touch are 5 basic ones. Followed by sensory modalities, like temperature or pain(there are more, but those are irrelevant in this case, like sense of balance).

Problem is that only 2 senses that are available to us in games are sight and, usually, hearing. So only way to channel remaining perceptions is thru those two. And usually its done thru sense of sight, thru various huds, bars, numbers, etc. While there is always option to do it thru hearing, it usually takes a lot more work and space to do it this way(as hundreds different conditions and their variations would require their own audio files - representing person heath with 100-point bar or making dozen of various recordings that would take 10 times more effort and resources, while being actually less accurate as this same 100-point bar, not to mention being less universal). In other words, visual representation of our "missing" sense is more accurate and easier way to go. Removing all those bars and tabs is like losing multiple senses at once. Like pain, for example.

Me, for example, i like info. More various gauges there is the better. Thats the most immersive way for me to play games. This way while i cant utilize all my senses to get fullest perception of game world, i can use this crotch get as close as possible. I also completely despise all those fade-out UI features, that have been utilized more and more in recent games.

In general, calling lack of HUD immersive is like calling one-armed man ambidextrous. As player cuts himself away from most of his senses, or at least their representatives. So, yes, i call anyone who associates screen empty of various graphs, gauges or number with word "immersive" to be a complete and utter moron, who know nothing what this term means(or the fact that it means quite the opposite).

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36 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

Problem is that only 2 senses that are available to us in games are sight and, usually, hearing. So only way to channel remaining perceptions is thru those two. And usually its done thru sense of sight, thru various huds, bars, numbers, etc. While there is always option to do it thru hearing, it usually takes a lot more work and space to do it this way(as hundreds different conditions and their variations would require their own audio files - representing person heath with 100-point bar or making dozen of various recordings that would take 10 times more effort and resources, while being actually less accurate as this same 100-point bar, not to mention being less universal). In other words, visual representation of our "missing" sense is more accurate and easier way to go. Removing all those bars and tabs is like losing multiple senses at once. Like pain, for example.

Me, for example, i like info. More various gauges there is the better. Thats the most immersive way for me to play games. This way while i cant utilize all my senses to get fullest perception of game world, i can use this crotch get as close as possible. I also completely despise all those fade-out UI features, that have been utilized more and more in recent games.

In general, calling lack of HUD immersive is like calling one-armed man ambidextrous. As player cuts himself away from most of his senses, or at least their representatives. So, yes, i call anyone who associates screen empty of various graphs, gauges or number with word "immersive" to be a complete and utter moron, who know nothing what this term means(or the fact that it means quite the opposite).

Totally get where you are coming from with relation to 'the other senses'. I think in general the primary two senses are very well handled in TLD. Visually, the world is quite beautiful - represented in it's own unique artstyle. The auditory experience is also very wonderfully done. Small cues from nature by means of audio can be detected and tell you far more about the environment than you can see. The birds and their various calls, the pattering of feet, the weather..

Yet the other senses, touch, smell, taste are far harder to replicate in any way.

You mention pain as being one such sensory aspect that is lacking, and while I partially agree, I don't think any number of gauges helps with that from an immersion standpoint. Sure it might give you quicker, more accurate feedback and allow you to mentally roleplay it better, but that isn't quite the same thing as immersion. Nor however, is simply having a clean screen without UI elements equivalent to an 'immersive atmosphere'.

However, I would say that UI elements (particularly highly noticeable ones) are more immersion-breaking than immersion-building. Staring at UI is a constant reminded that you are a 'third person' controlling an avatar within a game world. You may and are quite entitled to disagree with that though.

Tiredness, and being overencumbered is quite well handled but making movement slower, however, sometimes frustratingly so. The 'on the verge of death' effects while desperately trying to stagger to a safe location to treat your injuries, rest and recouperate is also brilliantly handled. Unlike some games that simply continually dim the screen or have a large red border that contracts and contracts, this element is beautifully handled with blurring, staggered movement, and a real feeling of trying to claw your way forward in desperation. You can also see your own blood trail behind you when bleeding out. 

There is however a balance to be struck, between how much the 'visual effects' and 'sound effects' can fill in the blanks for the other sensory information, and information on your own body, exhaustion, thirst, hunger, pain, nausea... There is also more that could be added in both visual and sound effects to enhance the existing, but it can't all be resolved using this method, and there is a cut off point not just from amount of work to create, but from a player sensory overload. Sound effects could obscure each other, some could become too awkward to distinguish from one another... and so on.

The 'breath' for example. Many currently say that it is currently too opaque and obscures the world more. This could be one element used to provide additional feedback to the player. If your condition is good, not overburdened, freezing etc, the breath could be very transparent and light. Heavy overburdened, it becomes slower and much heavier. Running out of stamina, it becomes far more frequent, lots of short sharp breaths.. and so on.

Broken ankles could introduce a sharp 'limping' visual effect.

Extreme cold and high risk of hypothermia could introduce occasional shiverring visual effects and/or sneezing.

Complete removal of UI is not simply a path to 'immersion', but many elements of UI can be rendered less important through visual and auditory effects and the onscreen distraction and the reminders of your 'gaming state' can thus be reduced.

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3 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Like hunger exploit ,that allows player to live off 500 calories a day by eating only once before going to bed. Or the fact that sticks(flares, tinder plugs), always drop facing in same direction ? Or several other critical exploits that have been around for as long as i can remember ?

Are you trying to imply that other developers use "Unity off-the-shelf" ? Because absolutely everyone, who deserve to be called developer, make extensive modificatinions to met their needs. Also, multiplayer games are considerably harder to make, compared to solo games, as there is a whole huge additional layer to them. Not to mention considerable higher attention to balancing and details.

Another completely unsupported conjecture and in most games free-roam is what determines longevity of the game. Also judging game based on somethign that have not being released yet is like being in perpetual state of hype. And we all know how those tend to end. I only judge what i cant experience, not some idealized, completely unfounded vision of thing that are somewhere over the horizon.

I know il get a lot of flak for it, but you are *indisticntive muttering* ignorant. You are one of those people who consider lack of UI to me "immersive" or "realistic", even tho its as immersive as being blind deaf and having cipa. Its an ultimate absurdity, as it refers to it opposite.

In real life humans have several primary senses, that are responsible for out perception and how we experience world. Sight, smell, hearing, taste and touch are 5 basic ones. Followed by sensory modalities, like temperature or pain(there are more, but those are irrelevant in this case, like sense of balance).

Problem is that only 2 senses that are available to us in games are sight and, usually, hearing. So only way to channel remaining perceptions is thru those two. And usually its done thru sense of sight, thru various huds, bars, numbers, etc. While there is always option to do it thru hearing, it usually takes a lot more work and space to do it this way(as hundreds different conditions and their variations would require their own audio files - representing person heath with 100-point bar or making dozen of various recordings that would take 10 times more effort and resources, while being actually less accurate as this same 100-point bar, not to mention being less universal). In other words, visual representation of our "missing" sense is more accurate and easier way to go. Removing all those bars and tabs is like losing multiple senses at once. Like pain, for example.

Me, for example, i like info. More various gauges there is the better. Thats the most immersive way for me to play games. This way while i cant utilize all my senses to get fullest perception of game world, i can use this crotch get as close as possible. I also completely despise all those fade-out UI features, that have been utilized more and more in recent games.

In general, calling lack of HUD immersive is like calling one-armed man ambidextrous. As player cuts himself away from most of his senses, or at least their representatives. So, yes, i call anyone who associates screen empty of various graphs, gauges or number with word "immersive" to be a complete and utter moron, who know nothing what this term means(or the fact that it means quite the opposite).

I tend to think that you really hate this game and all it stands for. I don't know why you are on this forum except to blow holes in ideas and comments because of your opinion. I feel like you must be a very anal-retentive pessimist in real life who can find no joy.

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 First, to be civil, let's stick to the post, not the poster. We don't know each other and can only speak to what we write, not to who one another is. Disagreement doesn't entail dislike. Every forum needs a pessimist: they keep us honest! :)

5 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Are you trying to imply that other developers use "Unity off-the-shelf" ? Because absolutely everyone, who deserve to be called developer, make extensive modificatinions to met their needs. Also, multiplayer games are considerably harder to make, compared to solo games, as there is a whole huge additional layer to them. Not to mention considerable higher attention to balancing and details.

 No. If you read carefully, I'm saying that developers don't use Unity off the shelf. Furthermore, I said that co-op or multiplayer is hard to do after the fact. I said the opposite of what you think I said. Or, to put it another way, we agree. :o 

5 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Another completely unsupported conjecture and in most games free-roam is what determines longevity of the game. Also judging game based on somethign that have not being released yet is like being in perpetual state of hype. And we all know how those tend to end. I only judge what i cant experience, not some idealized, completely unfounded vision of thing that are somewhere over the horizon.

 What I said in the text you quoted to which this serves as a reply was that until story mode arrives, it's hard to say if development has been slow. I mean, the length, width and depth of story mode will show comprehensively what HL have been up to over the years and that sandbox mode isn't enough on its own to measure their output. This is not conjecture, but reason. You can't judge a meal by the appetizer, a movie by the soundtrack or a car by the paint. To do so is to base a judgement on incomplete information, hardly a strong foundation for an argument. You also cannot judge Hinterland by sandbox mode alone; they have said from the start that sandbox was to be a kind of playground for people, something to offer by which they could generate capital to focus on story mode which is their real vision, the actual product they want to make. That sandbox became wildly popular and required more investment than HL expected does nothing to change the fact that it is and was a means to an end, an end which we haven't seen yet. So, don't judge a book by its cover, if you like.

The rest of your post attempts only to rationalize your opinion. Your sensory argument doesn't hold water as it isn't at all objective; it only speaks to how you utilize and interpret the UI and what it means to you. I don't consider the UI as sensory replacement; it doesn't smell, touch or taste for me, it allows me to interact with the game world, that's it. That is literally the definition of UI: User Interface. I suppose I can see where you are coming from, but I can't agree with either the premises or the conclusion as they are not universally true.

 Claiming that the UI is difficult to see against the white that dominates the game is true, even if only to a degree or in particular cases. Arguments against the UI as being immediately less informative are true. Easily reasoned against, but true. Claiming that the UI is a replacement for taste, touch and smell is in no way true. Games are about cognition utilizing sight and sound, as they always have been. The UI - quite separate from audio - provides visual information by which we understand what is happening. Not feel, taste, hear or smell, but simply recognize and deduce.

 Since we are well off-topic now (how did we get here exactly?!) and taken back into yet another crusade against the UI (which is here to stay and I suggest we all get used to it), the information that some people want - that which has always been available to us - is still there, just not accessed in the same manner. Any claims made against the new system that relate to the absence of that information are erroneous.

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4 hours ago, Carbon said:

 Since we are well off-topic now (how did we get here exactly?!) and taken back into yet another crusade against the UI (which is here to stay and I suggest we all get used to it), the information that some people want - that which has always been available to us - is still there, just not accessed in the same manner. Any claims made against the new system that relate to the absence of that information are erroneous.

The crusade was also about the placement of elements. E.g. a red thermometer somewhere bottom offcenter looks... off.

We shouldn't judge efficiency of unknown people in unknown companies. I mean, it's a complex system. In my job, even the upper next hierarchy does not know what I am capable of and they do not know what I exactly do, how efficient I am, etc. etc. 

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