Docterrok

Why Spears NEED to be in this game.

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I think spears might be good if this was a game where no other weapons where available, but we do have other weapons so I say no to spears.

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I would definitely use spears as first weapons in-game when rifle is still inaccessible to get or to save ammo.. Spears should be used to be thrown to animals which could cause moderate to high damage, depending the location and depending the condition of the spear. It can also be used to "brandish", hoping for the wolves to be scared away but at low chance.

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Personally, this was one of the first things I was expecting to be able to craft in the game.

The thread has raised many good points about the game balance and making things too easy, but I see it slightly differently. I see the spear as a beginner only option.

First you have to consider whether it is a flimsy, light weight javelin style which can be hurled as a hunting weapon, or (as I was initially expecting) more of a brandishable polearm doubling as a walking staff on the snow covered and icy slopes.

The latter option, the brandishable spear - meant to attempt to ward off stalking wolves while backing away in essence has the same effect as a torch or flare. Flares/torches burn out, a spear does not. Flares/torches have other uses - as a light source or lighting a fire, but the spear can't do these. Flares and torches are lightweight, the spear is a heavy item.

At the start of the game, it should be quite easily craftable (possibly from a fallen limb as an option alongside harvesting as one example). It is also not a particular burden at this stage with your empty inventory. It provides some basic protection before you have found flares, matches, oil etc. It is more a 'scare' weapon than likely to do any damage to something as quick and nimble as a wolf.

You would still need to be backing away from the wolf - much like using a flare. It doesn't really have much likelihood of any real offensive capability - just meant to keep a snarling creature at bay and out of range of biting you.

However, once you have flares/torches and a lot of other tools weighing you down - do you really want to be carrying this 'one trick' heavy tool - the spear? Perhaps at something like 4kg it would be a HUGE carry capacity sacrifice for something that only had one purpose (possibly two - cutting down on sprained ankles). Add on top of that, that it potentially only worked if you were facing the wolf with it - it becomes much harder to even use if you have 2 wolves from differing directions. Bows and the rifle would be much favoured later on, and even flares once you had found some.

It is likely to be one of the first tools you end up ditching as your clothing weight and backpack fills up with other goodies and you have other methods to deal with the wildlife threats.

Returning to the start though, if the intent was as a ranged, thrown javelin. Then the trade off here really is the fact that it is a 'one use' item, and if you have ever tried to throw one at something you'll realise that without a tremendous amount of practice, they are incredibly inaccurate. Against a stationary object perhaps you'll eventually land a shot, against a moving object it is even harder. One reason that 'tribes' went hunting together and all launched spears hoping that someone might actually land a shot.

I don't see much point in adding in this kind of javelin/spear in the game. It doesn't really add much and kind of begs requiring the more supple saplings which would be far better utilised making arrows.

 

TL;DR:

I see the spear being more of a solid, brandishable, scaremongering polearm/walking staff. Essentially an early (first couple of days) option for flares/torches but, as a heavy item with no additional use, it will likely be quickly out-performed by other findable and craftable items.

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While I agree a spear would be cool (and was, in fact, one of my early recommendations for the game prior to fixing of combat system), I think it cannot happen without a nearly complete overhaul of the combat system - really it is that simple.  If you want a game with full primitive combat abilities, I suggest the Far Cry - Primal.

Again, I am not suggesting that it would not be cool or reasonable... but, seriously, it would require a significant revisiting of the entire combat system.  I would also add that, in reality, wolves travel in good size packs and operative in a highly skilled and organized fashion tracking and stalking and harassing prey for miles and in the final take down would come with several at once grabbing multiple limbs or take down and invariably your throat - closing and/or tearing out windpipe. 

Even adding in a little of this would be cruel to players... imagine five wolves track you across the landscape (they do not tire like you) all the while keeping their distance, then suddenly, 2-3 rush you (remember they are smart so 1 in your visual field might feint or attack... but the others - your blind-sides of course... snapping and biting - resulting in significant clothing damage and injuries (and possible infection)... after a quick assault, they retreat... shadowing you... 10-25 meters away, moving about in the shadows and just out of reach, but now you've got injuries - sprains, bleeding, and you're energy is dimished... because you did fight back a bit.  Even at the higher challenge game modes where there are a lot of wolves, these are nothing like real skilled pack hunts... you can have your spears... in reality a wolf pack is nothing a lone spear-men would fair well against.

Trust me... if reality is what you want... feral-rabid wolves and pack hunting would render the game no fun for players in no time - spears or no spears. Again, Far Cry Primal is what you are looking for... it's a different kind of game but one where you have spear combat.

 

Edited by TygerxEyes

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On Tuesday, May 09, 2017 at 7:31 PM, TWM said:

First you would have to determine which shortcoming - in terms of gameplay and balance - the introduction of the spear would adress. I'm guessing it would counteract the overabundance of wolves on Stalker, and on Interloper it would offer yet another line of defense when encountering a wolf.

Although one might wonder what advantage the spear offers over say, a flare or torch, other than psychological: having an offensive tool with which you can hurt wolves and send them whimpering off would embolden the player. Speaking for myself at least, I feel vulnerable even with a torch.

Secondly, you'd have to determine how the spear would function in wolf melee (which is where it'll find it's primary use; the spear wouldn't do much against an raging bear).

So... will it offer a guarantee of warding off wolves? That would throw the game completely off-balance, since it would render the threat of the wolves nil. And if not, how would one envision the game mechanics to work? Is that going to be a matter of poking at the right moment and risk getting jumped when you don't get it right?

So many factors to consider.

Apparently you haven't seen The Edge with Sir Anthony Hopkins and Alec Baldwin. When the bear rears up on it's hind legs before it drops down on top of you to maul you, you set the spear hilt into the snow at like a 45 degree angle. When the bear comes down he impales himself through the chest with his own body weight. It's probably the best and only defense against a bear in this game, and all it would take is a 6 foot sharp stick. Don't even need a metal tip on it. It could keep wolves at bay too, and be thrown at rabbits, but I prefer pebbles and the ole neck snap....

Edited by JoE Smash
Missing word

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22 hours ago, JoE Smash said:

Apparently you haven't seen The Edge with Sir Anthony Hopkins and Alec Baldwin. When the bear rears up on it's hind legs before it drops down on top of you to maul you, you set the spear hilt into the snow at like a 45 degree angle. When the bear comes down he impales himself through the chest with his own body weight. It's probably the best and only defense against a bear in this game, and all it would take is a 6 foot sharp stick. Don't even need a metal tip on it. It could keep wolves at bay too, and be thrown at rabbits, but I prefer pebbles and the ole neck snap....

You make a good point, however, that'd make bear killing too easy.

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I agree it would probably break the bear killing you gameplay mechanic, I was just telling you that's how a 14 year old Indian would kill a bear, and how they killed the man eating bear in The Edge movie. With a sharp stick, and the bear's own body weight....

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Yep, that would be setting a spear for an animal that wants to rush you and kill you....

That's pretty much what Sir Anthony Hopkins did to kill the bear in The Edge.

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On 6/26/2017 at 9:16 PM, JoE Smash said:

Apparently you haven't seen The Edge with Sir Anthony Hopkins and Alec Baldwin. When the bear rears up on it's hind legs before it drops down on top of you to maul you, you set the spear hilt into the snow at like a 45 degree angle. When the bear comes down he impales himself through the chest with his own body weight. It's probably the best and only defense against a bear in this game, and all it would take is a 6 foot sharp stick. Don't even need a metal tip on it. It could keep wolves at bay too, and be thrown at rabbits, but I prefer pebbles and the ole neck snap....

Worse. Idea. Ever.

As bear charges player, using something like "6 foot sharp stick" in any way but throwing it(and even that can have really bad outcome, even worse than doing nothing), is fairly horrible idea. First of all, unless player uses proper spear, there is a chance for this stick to break, as bear is one damn heavy animal, plus movement momentum on top of that.

Even if bear do not break that spear, it WILL continue moving, even impaled. As result it will hit player who holds that spear. There is 2 outcomes to those and they both end in player death. First, enraged bear will just turn player into pinata(large bears can literally tear human in two) and then possibly die. Second, bear dies, but since he will land on top of player, aside of multiple injuries that will result from being hit with force equivalent of a small car, he will also be pinned down under 200+ kilos of bear. And there is no way in hell that hes getting out from under it. Player will die from either internal injuries, bleeding or freeze to death. If hes lucky, wolves come along and finish him off.

During Middle Ages, infantry used pikes to stop mounted cavalry, but those were well made and were like 4+ meters long. Exactly for reasons described above.

Edited by Dirmagnos

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The bear did end up on top of Sir Anthony Hopkins, but it worked. It was a pretty thick spear. Longer and thicker than a sapling. You may think it's a terrible idea, I'm just saying historically it has been done that way....

Edited by JoE Smash
Can't spell

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3 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Worse. Idea. Ever.

As bear charges player, using something like "6 foot sharp stick" in any way but throwing it(and even that can have really bad outcome, even worse than doing nothing), is fairly horrible idea. First of all, unless player uses proper spear, there is a chance for this stick to break, as bear is one damn heavy animal, plus movement momentum on top of that.

Even if bear do not break that spear, it WILL continue moving, even impaled. As result it will hit player who holds that spear. There is 2 outcomes to those and they both end in player death. First, enraged bear will just turn player into pinata(large bears can literally tear human in two) and then possibly die. Second, bear dies, but since he will land on top of player, aside of multiple injuries that will result from being hit with force equivalent of a small car, he will also be pinned down under 200+ kilos of bear. And there is no way in hell that hes getting out from under it. Player will die from either internal injuries, bleeding or freeze to death. If hes lucky, wolves come along and finish him off.

During Middle Ages, infantry used pikes to stop mounted cavalry, but those were well made and were like 4+ meters long. Exactly for reasons described above.

Infantry spears were, on average, 7 feet long. They were used to stop charging horses.

Not that I disagree with you. There is a pretty large difference between a spear of ash and steel and a sharpened stick.

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On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 1:41 PM, Dirmagnos said:

Worse. Idea. Ever.

How do you know definitively my spear idea is indeed the worst idea ever.

Some would argue the Germans invading Poland was a worse idea....

Or Hitler trying to kill all the jews, I think that was a pretty crap-tastic idea.

I might even argue your parents making you was a worse idea than my idea. Some of your teachers, friends, and coworkers might even agree with me.

I mean I don't know you from Adam, but I'm pretty sure historically a lot of people have had worse ideas than trying to kill a bear with a sharp stick because that's all they had at their disposal, and a bear wanted to eat them.

Lastly what you said and the way you said it to me wasn't very nice, and I think that may have been a worse idea than my spear idea....

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4 hours ago, JoE Smash said:

How do you know definitively my spear idea is indeed the worst idea ever.

Don't be so damn literal minded.. it's just an expression.

And if I could, I'd downvote your post, merely for having proven Godwin's Law.

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If I could I'd down vote you for siding with a forum bully, shame on you!

Lastly you should down vote yourself for improper invoking of Goodwin's Law just to try to sound smart.

I didn't compare a person or thing to Hitler and/or his deeds. I merely mentioned one of his deeds and said that it was a crap-tastic idea. Go read a wiki...

Edited by JoE Smash
Clarification of Goodwin's Law

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On 26-6-2017 at 8:16 PM, JoE Smash said:

Apparently you haven't seen The Edge with Sir Anthony Hopkins and Alec Baldwin. When the bear rears up on it's hind legs before it drops down on top of you to maul you, you set the spear hilt into the snow at like a 45 degree angle. When the bear comes down he impales himself through the chest with his own body weight. It's probably the best and only defense against a bear in this game, and all it would take is a 6 foot sharp stick. Don't even need a metal tip on it. It could keep wolves at bay too, and be thrown at rabbits, but I prefer pebbles and the ole neck snap....

I remember that movie, or rather flashes from it. Baldwin is having an affair with Hopkins' wife, and they get stuk in the Alaskan outback or something. Also Hopkins is a billionaire.

That creates an element of suspense: is the Baldwin-character going to take the opportunity to get rid of Hopkins'? Or did Hopkins know al along and has he taken Baldin to the outback to kill him, and is he simply toying with him. For a some time you wonder who the bad guy is, and then there's a bonding experience because of outside threats (also, they have to get out of there alive, and your chances of survival are better as a team).

I didn't remember that scene where the bear is impaled (I do remember a scene where someone falls into a bear trap), but I'm not so sure that would work in real life. The movie is fictional, remember. (Okay, so is the Long Dark, but it strives for some measure of realism, and I doubt a spear will do you much good in case of a charging bear).

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1 hour ago, TWM said:

I remember that movie, or rather flashes from it. Baldwin is having an affair with Hopkins' wife, and they get stuk in the Alaskan outback or something. Also Hopkins is a billionaire.

That creates an element of suspense: is the Baldwin-character going to take the opportunity to get rid of Hopkins'? Or did Hopkins know al along and has he taken Baldin to the outback to kill him, and is he simply toying with him. For a some time you wonder who the bad guy is, and then there's a bonding experience because of outside threats (also, they have to get out of there alive, and your chances of survival are better as a team).

I didn't remember that scene where the bear is impaled (I do remember a scene where someone falls into a bear trap), but I'm not so sure that would work in real life. The movie is fictional, remember. (Okay, so is the Long Dark, but it strives for some measure of realism, and I doubt a spear will do you much good in case of a charging bear).

The pit impalement of Alec Baldwin happens shortly after handling the bear, once Hopkins took out the man eating bear Baldwin decides it is time to shoot the old man and take the wife and the billions. Hopkins manages to lure him to the man trap.

It is a fictional movie but the impalement of the bear is based on real tactics used by Indians. It's where Hopkins came up with the idea to try it. He was well read and read a book on survival and I believe it included tactics historically used to hunt. Also I remember a drawing he had in his posession of an Indian boy pointing a wooden spear at a 45° angle in front of a bear rearing up on it's hind legs. I think it was on the inside cover of the cigar box they were using to store some of their small items. I found picture of the image Hopkins used for his bear killing "master plan."

The picture I am attaching for your viewing pleasure was ASTOUNDINGLY difficult for me to locate via the Interwebs. Don't even ask me how I found it for you....

Screenshot_2017-06-30-06-36-35.png

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The picture I am attaching for your viewing pleasure was ASTOUNDINGLY difficult for me to locate via the Interwebs. Don't even ask me how I found it for you....

My appreciation of the gesture is doomed to fall short of the lengths you went to in procuring it by some leagues, I'm afraid.

That being said: I have to admit, the picture does look f*cking awesome. So awesome in fact, that I would suggest the art designers find a away to incorporate something similar in the game, were it not that from what I've heard, Canada is peculiarly culturally sensitivity when it comes to these kinds of depictions of native Americans (so probably no cigar, methinks).

Furthermore, your exposition goes a long way to butressing your earlier point, that it would be indeed quite feasible to impale a bear in this fashion.

Since I get all extents of my 'knowledge' of the outback from youtube-clips on survival and other internet-resources (one cannot be too prepared for when the SHTF, after all), I googled a bit around.

Why whaddayaknow:

This couple killed a mature black bear with a spear (the bear doesn't look very big in comparison to the spear, though). It fled and bled out. Of course, the couple got loads of flack on social media, because killing bears with a spear is animal cruelty (whereas shooting it with a rifle is less so, I gather - okay....)

So maybe if you were quick enough, you could use a spear to have the raging bear impale itself - in any case, I wouldn't try it in real life, because there's no saying what might go wrong.

 

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Yeah as others suggested earlier in the thread being able to impale a charging bear, would undoubtedly be game breaking. I doubt it will ever be implemented, I was mearly trying to argue the case that doing so is possible, and it has been done by others. I mean it would be awesome to not have to give bears two kilometers of space when trying to traverse the map, but it's just part of the game I guess...

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What is funny is that in real life, people hunt brown bears with spears. Not as often as they do with rifles, or even with bows, but I have seen a couple videos of people spearhunting bear in Alaska.

Hell, I even know a guy that takes a spear with him in his bushplane. 

And brown bears are infinitely more terrifying than black bears.

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Hello! Having played a little bit through, I would like to bring this back for folks to jaw over, if y'all don't mind.

 

I like the idea of spears for this game because I have one little niche spot in playthroughs that i would like filled. In the coastal highway area, I went to jackrabbit islands and found that I could actually run up to some rabbits, or corner them, without having the ability to stun them with rocks or use snares. With rocks, I found I wasn't necessarily too accurate, but I have made progress on that pretty well, killed at least 6 rabbits by day 20. What would have been nice is the ability to stab one of those rabbits from a distance. Melee by the player is relegated to struggles against wolves (and technically bears) and I think a spear could help turn that towards the player. 

Crafting spears in the scheme of what's in the game I think has already been discussed fairly well, but I don't know if I like the idea of the saplings being used. They almost seem too short? Also too flimsy? What about an additional crafting option from the cedar/Fir Limbs? They seem fairly straight and sturdy enough. The spearhead could be made from scrap metal, but I am unsure about having to use the forge? I wouldn't mind it, but one does have to go a distance to use the forge, unless additional forges, or some mobile forge is made available. 

 

Spears in gameplay would be interesting against the carnivores, as I think a lot of folks think about them in the scheme of defending struggles against the wolves or bears. I think that they could definitely work as braced weapons, but perhaps with a mechanic for timing the hit against wolves or bears to be effective? Lunge forward too early to meet the body and it might not stick, causing you to lose out on the chance to choose a weapon for struggling. Timing it too late could have a similar effect, with a correct click causing a spear to hit the throat or chest, maybe even head of the animal. Perhaps spears get additional chances for critical hits, to make them feel more risky and rewarding? Were a spear to connect, I'd say it would slow the animal, cause them to get feared and run, unless it's perhaps the bear, where it just staggers the animal, does damage, and interrupts the struggle, giving players time enough to flee or arm themselves. 

 

I really would like spears, but I think I also would like the gameplay changes that would be needed to make them rewarding.

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On 6/20/2017 at 0:35 PM, Miniwizard said:

Personally, this was one of the first things I was expecting to be able to craft in the game.

The thread has raised many good points about the game balance and making things too easy, but I see it slightly differently. I see the spear as a beginner only option.

First you have to consider whether it is a flimsy, light weight javelin style which can be hurled as a hunting weapon, or (as I was initially expecting) more of a brandishable polearm doubling as a walking staff on the snow covered and icy slopes.

The latter option, the brandishable spear - meant to attempt to ward off stalking wolves while backing away in essence has the same effect as a torch or flare. Flares/torches burn out, a spear does not. Flares/torches have other uses - as a light source or lighting a fire, but the spear can't do these. Flares and torches are lightweight, the spear is a heavy item.

At the start of the game, it should be quite easily craftable (possibly from a fallen limb as an option alongside harvesting as one example). It is also not a particular burden at this stage with your empty inventory. It provides some basic protection before you have found flares, matches, oil etc. It is more a 'scare' weapon than likely to do any damage to something as quick and nimble as a wolf.

You would still need to be backing away from the wolf - much like using a flare. It doesn't really have much likelihood of any real offensive capability - just meant to keep a snarling creature at bay and out of range of biting you.

However, once you have flares/torches and a lot of other tools weighing you down - do you really want to be carrying this 'one trick' heavy tool - the spear? Perhaps at something like 4kg it would be a HUGE carry capacity sacrifice for something that only had one purpose (possibly two - cutting down on sprained ankles). Add on top of that, that it potentially only worked if you were facing the wolf with it - it becomes much harder to even use if you have 2 wolves from differing directions. Bows and the rifle would be much favoured later on, and even flares once you had found some.

It is likely to be one of the first tools you end up ditching as your clothing weight and backpack fills up with other goodies and you have other methods to deal with the wildlife threats.

Returning to the start though, if the intent was as a ranged, thrown javelin. Then the trade off here really is the fact that it is a 'one use' item, and if you have ever tried to throw one at something you'll realise that without a tremendous amount of practice, they are incredibly inaccurate. Against a stationary object perhaps you'll eventually land a shot, against a moving object it is even harder. One reason that 'tribes' went hunting together and all launched spears hoping that someone might actually land a shot.

I don't see much point in adding in this kind of javelin/spear in the game. It doesn't really add much and kind of begs requiring the more supple saplings which would be far better utilised making arrows.

 

TL;DR:

I see the spear being more of a solid, brandishable, scaremongering polearm/walking staff. Essentially an early (first couple of days) option for flares/torches but, as a heavy item with no additional use, it will likely be quickly out-performed by other findable and craftable items.

I really like that point 

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