Docterrok

Why Spears NEED to be in this game.

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17 hours ago, JAFO said:

That's because you live in North America, (I'm guessing), where wolves have, for the most part, learned to be afraid of humans. In the rest of the world where wolves live, and in the US/Canada of 100 years ago, it's a different story. It's interesting to see how many attacks were not due to rabies.

Wolf attacks on humans

List of wolf attacks in North America

List of wolf attacks

 

Notice that even in recent years, there have been a number of fatal wolf attacks in the US and Canada.. generally when other prey is scarce. Of particular interest are some of the incidents 90+ years ago, where people had managed to fight off a dozen or more wolves before being taken down.. 

Many of the non-fatal attacks listed include interesting details of wolf behaviour as well.

on a related subject, I hear that bears will actively hunt humans and stalk them to know there schedule, scary...

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On 5/23/2017 at 5:41 PM, Lovehandel said:

I don't think wolves are intended to be hunted for food, that's why they introduced parasites. Eating wolves did not make the search for food easier, it made it redundant. Wolves were the meal that served itself. So I don't think you would see a lot of 50 foot shots.

Problem with wolves has been for a long time their weakness.

While better AI for them would be nice and some behavioral patterns, like pack mentality in certain cases, or attack patterns, could make encounters less predictable, simply beefing them on higher difficulty levels would do the trick, at least for now.

Instead we have a carper shitbombing...that also completely misses the issue, hitting everything but problem itself. We got parasites, we got higher chance of infection, we got typical quantity vs quality "solution", with higher difficulties just have more wolves everywhere(they are not stronger, they are not smarter, there is just more of them spread evently over the map). And main problem - wolf weakness as opponents - was not addressed at any point.

Playing last week i killed 4 wolves in melee, consecutively, losing only 31 health. Main challenge was avoiding infection risk(95%), not fighting wolves themselves(5%). And considering that infection risk from wolf attack is a completely random feature, then player has little control over what would be going on, as wolves themselves pose little to no threat.

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18 hours ago, cekivi said:

Excellent points @Dirmagnos but please watch with the swearing. 

Thats like telling a tree to stop growing...

 

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3 hours ago, Docterrok said:

Thats like telling a tree to stop growing...

 

We're just working to keep things friendly around here. Personal comments aren't needed. Please stay on topic. Thank you.

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On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 5:17 PM, Dirmagnos said:

 

Playing last week i killed 4 wolves in melee, consecutively, losing only 31 health. Main challenge was avoiding infection risk(95%), not fighting wolves themselves(5%). And considering that infection risk from wolf attack is a completely random feature, then player has little control over what would be going on, as wolves themselves pose little to no threat.

 

This is exactly right.

So, does the game "need" spears? No. Would they be cool and add to the immersion for some players? Absolutely. Personally, I think any way of making it easier to deal with wolves detracts from the game.

Once you know the maps, wolves are they only real danger in game (aside from intentional stupidity)

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On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 7:37 PM, JAFO said:

That's because you live in North America, (I'm guessing), where wolves have, for the most part, learned to be afraid of humans. In the rest of the world where wolves live, and in the US/Canada of 100 years ago, it's a different story. It's interesting to see how many attacks were not due to rabies.

Wolf attacks on humans

List of wolf attacks in North America

List of wolf attacks

 

Notice that even in recent years, there have been a number of fatal wolf attacks in the US and Canada.. generally when other prey is scarce. Of particular interest are some of the incidents 90+ years ago, where people had managed to fight off a dozen or more wolves before being taken down.. 

Many of the non-fatal attacks listed include interesting details of wolf behaviour as well.

 

This was an interesting read. To put it in perspective, there are over 350,000 domestic dog attacks/bites and over 40 fatalities in just 1 year. That is just in the USA. (42 fatalities in 2015) could not find newer stats.

Edited by Lovehandel
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On 5/27/2017 at 4:59 PM, Lovehandel said:

 

This was an interesting read. To put it in perspective, there are over 350,000 domestic dog attacks/bites and over 40 fatalities in just 1 year. That is just in the USA. (42 fatalities in 2015) could not find newer stats.

That is interesting, however, I believe that the geomagnetic storm affected the minds of the wolves and made them aggressive.

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nteresting idea on account of the spear , it is convenient when the wolf you run , but unfortunately the wolf is shorter .

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1 hour ago, Docterrok said:

That is interesting, however, I believe that the geomagnetic storm affected the minds of the wolves and made them aggressive.

 

If the geomagnetic storm had that effect on the brains of wolves, why has our hero not gone feral.

 

Maybe that's why we don't have spears, because of the storm, we forgot how to make them. This is of course silly, but so is two pain killers curing a sprain.

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On May 30, 2017 at 0:36 PM, Lovehandel said:

 

If the geomagnetic storm had that effect on the brains of wolves, why has our hero not gone feral.

 

Maybe that's why we don't have spears, because of the storm, we forgot how to make them. This is of course silly, but so is two pain killers curing a sprain.

Well, I feel that the painkiller thing is simply a balancing mechanic.

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Actual wilderness survival with predators trying to eat me?  Spear gets made first.

Now, let's talk about this game.  What can the spear add?  Well, I think it is fine for crafted items to be better than found items, and I think the spear can be made to imitate functionality we already see.

First, let's make the spear somewhat hard to make.  Can't be ridiculously hard as part of the utility of the spear is it's simplicity.  But I envision a new type of sapling for spear. Something like an 'Exceptionally Straight Sapling'  So now you need an axe and some time for it to cure.  Next up you need a knife.  Now, this is sacrifice!  If you one knife, do you give it up to make the spear?  Finally, need guts to lash knife to spear, I'd go with 4 guts.

#1 Brandish.  You have a chance of scaring off a wolf that is closing in for the attack.  Not 100% chance, but a reasonable chance

#2 Defense from wolf on frontal attack.  It always seemed odd to me that a wolf jumping on my back or on my front the fight is the same. Seems there should be SOME benefit to facing the wolf walking backwards hoping he doesn't attack but preparing yourself if it does.  Here's were spear comes into play. if the wolf charges and you have the spear equipped you are still going to get hurt but not as bad.  If spear is equipped you have a head start.  20% chance wolf self-inflicts a minor would to himself, and immediately runs off bleeding...you are knocked down but otherwise unharmed.  60% chance you inflict some preliminary damage to the wolf, meaning the fight on the ground will take less long, so you'll have less damage to your clothing and body, but will still get hurt,  Wolf will run off bleeding at a higher rate, so will die faster.  20% chance wolf manages to duck/dodge spear and attack happens as normal. 

#3 bear killer.  No chance of brandishing off bear.  Bear attacks and still does massive damage to you, but SLIGHTLY LESS than normal.  Biggest factor is the spear inflicts a serious wound on the bear causing it to finish the attack and run off bleeding in much worse shape, bleeds to death sooner.

All attacks have a chance of breaking the spear.  Bear has a high chance of breaking spear.

To me, crafting an 'improved' weapon is no different than crafting improved clothing.

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3 hours ago, akodo1 said:

But I envision a new type of sapling for spear. Something like an 'Exceptionally Straight Sapling'  So now you need an axe and some time for it to cure.

How about, after curing, you then need to heat-straighten the wood even further. So now you need a fire as well.

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It's not a matter of how good a spear could be, but adding another line of defense that makes them overpowered. Keep in mind that I am not talking about Interloper level. On Interloper, how about you have access to spears, but not bows or a rifle. That should satisfy those death wish players and provide a spear for the realist without making Voyager or Stalker too easy. You could put one in Pilgrim too, it's the most realistic of the levels, and a spear would not be overpowered because you would never need to use it.

 

As it is, only in the first five to ten days do wolves really present a challenge. That's why so many players will play 30 to 60 days and start another run. Once you're established in Voyager and Stalker (Less so) there really isn't a lot of danger. 

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1 hour ago, Lovehandel said:

You could put one in Pilgrim too, it's the most realistic of the levels

Sorry to ask, but I'm curious about this comment. Why do you think so?

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3 hours ago, slackhideo said:

 

Sorry to ask, but I'm curious about this comment. Why do you think so?

 

Because in reality the wildlife in Canada will not attack you at every opportunity. There are plenty of provincial and national parks you can hike through in the North where most people do not even carry a gun. Water and calorie consumption is also closer to reality.

 

Don't be sorry, it's a discussion forum :)

Edited by Lovehandel
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3 hours ago, slackhideo said:

 

Sorry to ask, but I'm curious about this comment. Why do you think so?

In reality, animals don't attack wantonly. Chances are, unless they want to be seen, you will never see a wolf or bear in the wild.

The devs made the wolves and bears so violent in The Long Dark largely because they probably couldn't come up with a way to make the environment a believable threat. That, and people generally need some form of antagonist to play against in order to feel challenged.

That is my opinion, and I am sticking to it.

Also, in Pilgrim, it is actually very difficult to hunt, because all animals run away from you. It has taken me 3x as long to get a wolfskin coat in Pilgrim than it has in Voyager.

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1 hour ago, Lovehandel said:

Because in reality the wildlife in Canada will not attack you at every opportunity. There are plenty of provincial and national parks you can hike through in the North where most people do not even carry a gun. Water and calorie consumption is also closer to reality.

Oh, I see. That seems nice. I play a lot in Pilgrim mode (I'm still a newbie :$) and usually find the way wolves and bears run from you kind of artificial (I guess Hinterland just reused the code they already had when you fight these animals and they run away).
About the different water and calorie consumption, I really didn't know that. Good information.

 

31 minutes ago, Boston123 said:

In reality, animals don't attack wantonly. Chances are, unless they want to be seen, you will never see a wolf or bear in the wild.

After playing this game, I'm quite happy about not having close encounters with them in reality :D
I hiked some mountains in Japan that have "caution with the bears" signs all over the place. People would carry small bells to allegedly avoid these close encounters. I love to hike, but it's quite scary to imagine a close encounter with a hungry bear. But yeah, as you said, it's unlikely to happen, thankfully.

31 minutes ago, Boston123 said:

Also, in Pilgrim, it is actually very difficult to hunt, because all animals run away from you. It has taken me 3x as long to get a wolfskin coat in Pilgrim than it has in Voyager.

I agree with you. I usually live off bunnies.

 

1 hour ago, Lovehandel said:

Don't be sorry, it's a discussion forum :)

Thank you!
I also would like to say that I didn't want to veer off from the thread's topic. It's just that I got curious, as I play a lot in Pilgrim :)

Edited by slackhideo

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I respectfully disagree with the spear idea....

Interloper is already not that hard if you have good decision making and good resource management.

I die to factors other than wolves more often than anything else, and most of my runs get boring (100+ days). In my opinion, they shouldn't even add stones, avoiding wolves, using flares, bait, and outsmarting them with positioning all work well. Interloper is already the best difficulty, I don't want it to be more easy..

What this game needs is late game threats, I always end up killing myself because stockpiling food, wood, tinder (before rank 3 fire starting) and other supplies is too easy. I end up having back up bows and easy access to crafting new hatchets and knives when my whetstones run out. And exploring yields me 50+ matches sometimes (I've even had upwards of 150).

Late game threats, temperatures that don't eliminate the desire for crafted clothing (seriously, it doesn't even help past day 50) and higher risk/reward decisions need to be introduced, not early game weapons.

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On 5/24/2017 at 5:17 PM, Dirmagnos said:

(they are not stronger, they are not smarter, there is just more of them spread evently over the map). And main problem - wolf weakness as opponents - was not addressed at any point

Well, on interloper, wolves are more scarce, but are absolute terminators. They do a ton of damage. Also, they tend to not get intimidated as easily as far as I can tell (except by campfires, obviously). I think if you're looking for dangerous wolves and important decision making, interloper is where it's at.

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Without giving away any spoilers, any discussion as to the degree of danger posed (or not) by wolves at this point, should be reserved until the next patch is released.

Let's just say, things have changed.

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On 6/4/2017 at 8:45 PM, JAFO said:

Without giving away any spoilers, any discussion as to the degree of danger posed (or not) by wolves at this point, should be reserved until the next patch is released.

Let's just say, things have changed.

That's not really a spoiler.

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7 hours ago, Docterrok said:

That's not really a spoiler.

Well, that's why I didn't say more than I did.. 

Now, it's not a spoiler to say that wolves have become something to respect and fear, instead of simply a nuisance.. but when I posted the above, the new patch hadn't been officially released.

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I don't really want a spear, as in an iron tipped, pointy edged weapon.  I'd totally go nuts over a stave of some sort though.

Could use it as a walking cane to help jog (slow sprint) with a sprained ankle, reduce the punishment of wind and uphill ascensions and beat the bejeezus out of a wolf with it.  Basically as someone said very early on, acts as a pre-struggle tool that can either scare the wolf with some very vivid tapping or give it a couple of whacks starting the struggle with some slight (say 20%) advantage.

The stave can't be carried without being equipped (too long to store in a backpack), and will occupy one hand at all times (which is fine unless using rifle or bow).  Auto dropped if something else is taken out or a two handed activity (repair, breaking down objects, fire starting, cooking, eating etc) is carried out.

Wouldn't be a game breaker, wolves would still be a menace but at least you can plan ahead and do something about an entire pack that approaches, hoping to keep them at bay until you make it to the 

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4 hours ago, luponius said:

I don't really want a spear, as in an iron tipped, pointy edged weapon.  I'd totally go nuts over a stave of some sort though.

Could use it as a walking cane to help jog (slow sprint) with a sprained ankle, reduce the punishment of wind and uphill ascensions and beat the bejeezus out of a wolf with it.  Basically as someone said very early on, acts as a pre-struggle tool that can either scare the wolf with some very vivid tapping or give it a couple of whacks starting the struggle with some slight (say 20%) advantage.

The stave can't be carried without being equipped (too long to store in a backpack), and will occupy one hand at all times (which is fine unless using rifle or bow).  Auto dropped if something else is taken out or a two handed activity (repair, breaking down objects, fire starting, cooking, eating etc) is carried out.

Wouldn't be a game breaker, wolves would still be a menace but at least you can plan ahead and do something about an entire pack that approaches, hoping to keep them at bay until you make it to the 

Really good point.

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