Docterrok

Why Spears NEED to be in this game.

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3 hours ago, Amator said:

Hello all. I posted the below idea for spear implementation on /r/thelongdark and was told I should post it here on the Hinterland forums. 

A balanced way to implement spears to provide additional early-game options. 

Spears are one of the earliest weapons created by man and are present in nearly every culture. At the most simple level, spears are simply sharpened sticks. Using a metal/stone/bone/obsidian spearhead is usually advised, as that is more deadly and more durable than a fire-hardened wooden spearhead. One easy way to accomplish this is to lash a knife on a pole to make an impromptu spear. 

  • Spears using a knife or forged metal spearhead have a cumulative 20% chance to break when used. This means a max of five thrusts before you have to get a new sapling and gut to rebuild.
  • Wooden-tip spears are easy to make (fire-harden the sharpened wooden spearhead) but wooden spearheads are fragile and have a 50% cumulative chance to break.

You can throw a spear but is difficult once you're past a certain range (much shorter than bow/shotgun) and it's a one shot-solution as you have to go to your knife, hatchet, or prybar since you've thrown your spear away.

The advantage of a spear is that it is an easily-craftable weapon with a bit of range, but it is fragile and quickly uses up saplings that could be used for bows/arrows. Probably good for early game until you get a bow/arrow, but too fragile for regular use.

mmm,  all the % of breaking don't change a lot. You can already avoid wolves, so you don't need a weapon that last. We will be able to throw again flare and torch, which are rare etc so they would kind of overlap.

I have nothing against spear, maybe they could be implemented right, point is I still don't understand why people want them besides realism and such. There're two problems with them:

1) We already have many ways to deal with wolves.

2) Spears is one of the way that would feel (or would feel need to) more melee. And the game is strictly non melee.

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35 minutes ago, Docterrok said:

It's all about balancing.

Exactly right, If you make it worth crafting (based on existing crafting mats) I think spears are overpowered. If you make them an early game defense mechanism made from branches, sure put it in. 

 

You shoot at a wolf with your bow and miss, you equip your spear to keep him at bay or throw it and it breaks, or you miss so you fight him with your knife. That's three layers of defense, The poor wolf is fighting the US Marines, I suggest if we get spears, the wolves get a third row of teeth.

Edited by Lovehandel

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On 5/18/2017 at 2:51 PM, Lovehandel said:

Exactly right, If you make it worth crafting (based on existing crafting mats) I think spears are overpowered. If you make them an early game defense mechanism made from branches, sure put it in. 

 

You shoot at a wolf with your bow and miss, you equip your spear to keep him at bay or throw it and it breaks, or you miss so you fight him with your knife. That's three layers of defense, The poor wolf is fighting the US Marines, I suggest if we get spears, the wolves get a third row of teeth.

Maybe make the spears like that from the king kong video game, stupidly weak but a decent defense for a while.

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I've been keeping an eye on this thread, because a spear is also something I recommended for this game some time ago, and I've seen others recommend it as well.

Ultimately I think this comes down to gaming philosophy. There seems to be this big drive to make TLD more "challenging", and recent developments in the game have been moving the game in that direction. I'm not sure I inherently agree or disagree with this. On the one hand, some developments (particularly the revamped clothing system, etc) have made the game more interesting, IMHO. But I don't necessarily believe that more challenging always = more interesting. For one, this depends very much on the preferences of the target audience for the game. For two, being a survival game, a sense of realism needs to be maintained for the target audience to remain engaged with the game. So throwing out the idea of a spear for the supposed reason that implementing a spear "will not make the game more challenging" isn't inherently logical to me, because we have not defined whether the game necessarily needs to be more challenging to be more interesting. And with the various difficulty levels, weapons can easily be added or removed to artificially create varying degrees of difficulty, much like the rifle/hunting knife are already added or removed depending on the difficulty level.

On a completely different spectrum, I think many gamers, including myself, enjoy creative problem solving. If you have the option to turn a maple sapling into a bow or a spear, then you have the opportunity to play the game creatively, and invest your resources according to your play style, and deal with those trade-offs correspondingly. If you only ever have the option to make a bow, you are relegated to dealing with threats at range or on your back taking damage. This is a false dichotomy since many of us have already expressed, if we were personally trying to survive a similar situation, we would very early on try to make a spear. So from a players perspective, it's hard not to suspend disbelief for the lack of this crafting option.

In general, I would say, making a game more "challenging" by additive means (ie, adding more severe challenges, a wider variety of challenges, etc) typically results in a better gaming experience. Making a game more "challenging" by reductive means (in this case, limiting a player's problem solving options), typically results in an inferior gaming experience.

Edited by mattyboi
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1 hour ago, mattyboi said:

So throwing out the idea of a spear for the supposed reason that implementing a spear "will not make the game more challenging" isn't inherently logical to me, because we have not defined whether the game necessarily needs to be more challenging to be more interesting.

For those of us who don't want a spear in game, it's not about "a spear will not make the game more challenging". It's about our belief that a spear will make the game considerably less challenging.

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29 minutes ago, JAFO said:

For those of us who don't want a spear in game, it's not about "a spear will not make the game more challenging". It's about our belief that a spear will make the game considerably less challenging.

1. Is killing a wolf from ~50 feet away with a bow and arrow more or less challenging than killing a wolf from ~5 feet away with a spear? Personally, I could see advantages and disadvantages to both.

2. Will crafting a spear using components that could otherwise be used to create two other weapons (maple sapling + hunting knife/improvised knife) make your ultimate survival more challenging or less challenging? Again, I see advantages and disadvantages to both.

The point is, currently the player isn't even offered the opportunity to decide, and to me that is the disappointment.

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The "less challenging" comes from the way a spear would make it trivially easy to defend from wolf attacks. (unless wolf AI gets a major upgrade, that is)

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16 minutes ago, JAFO said:

The "less challenging" comes from the way a spear would make it trivially easy to defend from wolf attacks. (unless wolf AI gets a major upgrade, that is)

The wolf AI and the spear are really two separate topics, IMHO. The current wolf AI is fairly rudimentary and needs an upgrade regardless. And since wolves represent the primary threat in most difficulty levels, an upgrade to the AI would be a significant impact to the game overall. But using the current wolf AI as justification to limit the options available to the player for crafting is really a disservice to the game. Like I said in my previous post, making the game more challenging through "additive" means results in better gameplay; in this case, adding a better wolf AI plus a spear would be a more entertaining game than the current wolf AI and no spear.

Question; would you object to having a spear in the current game if the mechanic to aim the spear was exactly the same as the mechanic to aim the bow (ie, the spear would stab to approximately center screen with no aiming reticle), with the only difference being that you wouldn't burn time drawing an arrow back to fire? How about with the trade-off being that if you miss the wolf and it tackles you, you drop the spear and have to fight bare handed?

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55 minutes ago, mattyboi said:

Question; would you object to having a spear in the current game if the mechanic to aim the spear was exactly the same as the mechanic to aim the bow (ie, the spear would stab to approximately center screen with no aiming reticle), with the only difference being that you wouldn't burn time drawing an arrow back to fire? How about with the trade-off being that if you miss the wolf and it tackles you, you drop the spear and have to fight bare handed?

With the proviso that wolf AI is upgraded as well, I'd consider that. If this was instituted with the current AI, it would still make things too easy. Which is why, in my mind, they are not two separate topics. One directly affects the other.

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15 hours ago, mattyboi said:

Ultimately I think this comes down to gaming philosophy. There seems to be this big drive to make TLD more "challenging", and recent developments in the game have been moving the game in that direction.

There are 2 ways to make things challenging and i believe that game is moving in the wrong direction. There is "right" way, from my perspective, where player is put in front of choices and opportunities, or needs, or tradeoffs. With multiple possible outcomes and path for overcoming. And then there is path of annoyance, where game is made to annoy the shit out of player, like Cabin Fever feature or parasites. That adds little to none in terms of quality and is made purely to create pointless obstacles.

So, instead of elevating and balancing overall feel of the game, instead we have ridiculously easy features, like condition management. With player being able to simply sleep off being mauled by a bear. And it takes just one good night sleep. WTF !!!

And we have out of place features, like same Cabin Fever(or parasites), that simply do not make any sense, from either gameplay or realism standpoint. They are created to solve a problem...except that they dont. And usually add problems on their own.

And on top of that we have exploits, like living off 500 calories a day. Resulting in huge section of survival just going out the window, as player dont need to worry about hunger much. And there are several ancient critical exploits that affect gameplay severely and have not been addressed adequately in the slightest.

Devs instead of changing how survival score is calculated, instead added Cabin Fever, that is pure annoyance for anyone who do not care about score boards. With nothing positive coming out of it. And actually disbalance game, by taking fairly severe chunk of immersion out of it. As it doesnt make sense to have condition that forces player out in cold and dark out of warm house, because...reasons. Its like some perverted version of rabies, just instead of water player develops phobia of...i dont even know of what, of being alive, probably.

Or instead of changing condition recovery and loss rates, that would simply kill numerous exploits, like living off 1 candy bar a day, they started adding crap like parasites or wolves having increased chance of causing blood infection. That completely tanked value of hunting, as simply fishing and trapping is far far far far far more profitable(in terms of both resources and danger) that going after a wolf(that became merely a source of occasional hide, as while they are extremely easy to kill even in melee, completely avoiding them may be difficult at times - so instead of being serious and prized opponent they have been continuously pushed into corner of "annoying irritant"). Result is simply not worth the effort or resources spent on it. And now player even get fuel from fish, while wolves still get finger. So disbalance only gets worse.

So, on one hand, we have critical features, like condition management, that require no effort to maintain whatsoever, and on the other we have features like parasites that require a lot of effort/finite resources to deal with, without any actual need for it.

Or the fact that trapping takes no resources, literally, as player can make an infinite amount of snares(reclaimed wood is returned upon disassembling of broken snare and guts player gets from rabbits, and since one snare is sufficient to catch multiple rabbits before it breaks, its an infinite cycle). Or fishing that, that combined with trapping(guts for lines) requires only scrap metal(that is fairly abundant and can last for a long time). Combination of those two is sufficient of keep player fed, with little to no effort, usage of resources or danger involved. Especially using hunger exploit.

At the same time, hunting takes a lot of finite resources, starting from weapons and ending with meds. With returns being fairly subpar, considering all the effort put into it. Granted, saplings can be washed ashore, making it theoretically infinite resource. Also old mans beard can wash ashore. Except there is 3 problems with this idea. First, it restricts player to just 2 regions and again puts him in danger of wolf attacks while scavenging. Second, it relies heavily on luck, as there is no guaranties that any of those will be available when player needs them. And third, they all still require additional tools/materials to craft and maintain. And on top of that is complete idiocy, for the lack of better word, that is cooking 5 - skill that progresses fast all the way till lvl4 and then literally hits the wall, as gaining lvl5 takes an industrial size fridge worth food cooking to obtain. And it result is as ridiculous as progression towards it, because it magically completely eliminates threat of both parasites and food poisoning - it is damn hard to get there, and at the same time it completely decimates already flimsy game balance, just rips it to bits(its like extreme version of third level firemaking, that eliminates need for tinder). Its like swinging from one extreme into another, with a blink of an eye. I could describe this feature with many words, but "balanced" do not come to mind at any point.

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3 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

There are 2 ways to make things challenging and i believe that game is moving in the wrong direction. There is "right" way, from my perspective, where player is put in front of choices and opportunities, or needs, or tradeoffs. With multiple possible outcomes and path for overcoming. And then there is path of annoyance, where game is made to annoy the shit out of player, like Cabin Fever feature or parasites. That adds little to none in terms of quality and is made purely to create pointless obstacles.

So, instead of elevating and balancing overall feel of the game, instead we have ridiculously easy features, like condition management. With player being able to simply sleep off being mauled by a bear. And it takes just one good night sleep. WTF !!!

And we have out of place features, like same Cabin Fever(or parasites), that simply do not make any sense, from either gameplay or realism standpoint. They are created to solve a problem...except that they dont. And usually add problems on their own.

And on top of that we have exploits, like living off 500 calories a day. Resulting in huge section of survival just going out the window, as player dont need to worry about hunger much. And there are several ancient critical exploits that affect gameplay severely and have not been addressed adequately in the slightest.

Devs instead of changing how survival score is calculated, instead added Cabin Fever, that is pure annoyance for anyone who do not care about score boards. With nothing positive coming out of it. And actually disbalance game, by taking fairly severe chunk of immersion out of it. As it doesnt make sense to have condition that forces player out in cold and dark out of warm house, because...reasons. Its like some perverted version of rabies, just instead of water player develops phobia of...i dont even know of what, of being alive, probably.

Or instead of changing condition recovery and loss rates, that would simply kill numerous exploits, like living off 1 candy bar a day, they started adding crap like parasites or wolves having increased chance of causing blood infection. That completely tanked value of hunting, as simply fishing and trapping is far far far far far more profitable(in terms of both resources and danger) that going after a wolf(that became merely a source of occasional hide, as while they are extremely easy to kill even in melee, completely avoiding them may be difficult at times - so instead of being serious and prized opponent they have been continuously pushed into corner of "annoying irritant"). Result is simply not worth the effort or resources spent on it. And now player even get fuel from fish, while wolves still get finger. So disbalance only gets worse.

So, on one hand, we have critical features, like condition management, that require no effort to maintain whatsoever, and on the other we have features like parasites that require a lot of effort/finite resources to deal with, without any actual need for it.

Or the fact that trapping takes no resources, literally, as player can make an infinite amount of snares(reclaimed wood is returned upon disassembling of broken snare and guts player gets from rabbits, and since one snare is sufficient to catch multiple rabbits before it breaks, its an infinite cycle). Or fishing that, that combined with trapping(guts for lines) requires only scrap metal(that is fairly abundant and can last for a long time). Combination of those two is sufficient of keep player fed, with little to no effort, usage of resources or danger involved. Especially using hunger exploit.

At the same time, hunting takes a lot of finite resources, starting from weapons and ending with meds. With returns being fairly subpar, considering all the effort put into it. Granted, saplings can be washed ashore, making it theoretically infinite resource. Also old mans beard can wash ashore. Except there is 3 problems with this idea. First, it restricts player to just 2 regions and again puts him in danger of wolf attacks while scavenging. Second, it relies heavily on luck, as there is no guaranties that any of those will be available when player needs them. And third, they all still require additional tools/materials to craft and maintain. And on top of that is complete idiocy, for the lack of better word, that is cooking 5 - skill that progresses fast all the way till lvl4 and then literally hits the wall, as gaining lvl5 takes an industrial size fridge worth food cooking to obtain. And it result is as ridiculous as progression towards it, because it magically completely eliminates threat of both parasites and food poisoning - it is damn hard to get there, and at the same time it completely decimates already flimsy game balance, just rips it to bits(its like extreme version of third level firemaking, that eliminates need for tinder). Its like swinging from one extreme into another, with a blink of an eye. I could describe this feature with many words, but "balanced" do not come to mind at any point.

I really like your points, do you believe the addition of spears would add or subtract to what you were thinking?

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10 minutes ago, Docterrok said:

I really like your points, do you believe the addition of spears would add or subtract to what you were thinking?

I am pro-spears. And that wall of text was just example of how things may be disbalanced, from wall to wall. So, if spears were done right and game itself balanced properly, they would fit nicely.

For example, rifle has iron sights and bullet travels where it points. Bow has a dot, but there are some limitations involved, as it do not travel in straight line and has limited range. Spear, on that matter, could be closer to shotgun, with rather huge aiming circle and when player either throws or plunges it, it hits somewhere in it, but there is no guarantee that it will be dead center.

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7 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

I am pro-spears. And that wall of text was just example of how things may be disbalanced, from wall to wall. So, if spears were done right and game itself balanced properly, they would fit nicely.

For example, rifle has iron sights and bullet travels where it points. Bow has a dot, but there are some limitations involved, as it do not travel in straight line and has limited range. Spear, on that matter, could be closer to shotgun, with rather huge aiming circle and when player either throws or plunges it, it hits somewhere in it, but there is no guarantee that it will be dead center.

I just don't know HOW it could be implemented.

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On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 7:27 PM, mattyboi said:

1. Is killing a wolf from ~50 feet away with a bow and arrow more or less challenging than killing a wolf from ~5 feet away with a spear? Personally, I could see advantages and disadvantages to both

 

With just a knife or hatchet you can easily survive a wolf attack or two. In fact, 90% of the time the wolves will die shortly after. If you are going to implement a spear, it would have to be more effective than a knife or hatchet or no one would carry it. What I wouldn't want, is wolf encounters to be a day at the office, The "Oh Shit"  moments are a big reason I play this game. Like I have said previously, I probably would not carry the spear but putting it in would not bother me.

 

I don't think wolves are intended to be hunted for food, that's why they introduced parasites. Eating wolves did not make the search for food easier, it made it redundant. Wolves were the meal that served itself. So I don't think you would see a lot of 50 foot shots.

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2 hours ago, Lovehandel said:

 

With just a knife or hatchet you can easily survive a wolf attack or two. In fact, 90% of the time the wolves will die shortly after. If you are going to implement a spear, it would have to be more effective than a knife or hatchet or no one would carry it. What I wouldn't want, is wolf encounters to be a day at the office, The "Oh Shit"  moments are a big reason I play this game. Like I have said previously, I probably would not carry the spear but putting it in would not bother me.

 

I don't think wolves are intended to be hunted for food, that's why they introduced parasites. Eating wolves did not make the search for food easier, it made it redundant. Wolves were the meal that served itself. So I don't think you would see a lot of 50 foot shots.

You make a good point, but what would make you WANT to have spears in the game?

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1 hour ago, Docterrok said:

You make a good point, but what would make you WANT to have spears in the game?

 

More pack encounters. Often there will be four wolves that roam as a pack. Right now I avoid them if possible but sometimes they are hidden by snow banks or the rail cars. Sometimes they are on the Lake and you have to get to shelter. I any case you may choose to fight off four wolves in short order. In a case like this I can see the value of a spear. Having a chance to take no damage on two or more of the attacks is the difference between survival and The Long Dark. With only one pack roaming at a time, they are easily avoidable most of the time, just like bears.

 

Having said the above, I don't want more wolves. That's why I play Voyager. If there are too many wolves, they may as well be zombies. I want to have to be aware of the wildlife at all times but I don't want to run a gauntlet of wolves every time I venture out.

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A spear or club would be an hour 1 weapon. I've always favored it. I think the torch or decoy are interesting "thinking options" meanwhile the wolf of the wild is thinking "awww how cute to drop a decoy" But I dont eat things I haven't had to chase down and kill, and for a torch they think "oh man that is scary good thing it only burns for a few minutes". I like options but not having a spear or club is just silly. This is something you would immediately seek in wolf country. 

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8 minutes ago, KD7BCH said:

A spear or club would be an hour 1 weapon. I've always favored it. I think the torch or decoy are interesting "thinking options" meanwhile the wolf of the wild is thinking "awww how cute to drop a decoy" But I dont eat things I haven't had to chase down and kill, and for a torch they think "oh man that is scary good thing it only burns for a few minutes". I like options but not having a spear or club is just silly. This is something you would immediately seek in wolf country. 

 

I lived in wolf country for many years and never even heard of a wolf attacking anyone. As a matter of fact, you can go months without seeing one, simply because they seen/smelled/heard you first. The reality issue really is a non-issue. We always carried a rifle, but that was more for bears. Black bears up north can become very aggressive. too many people think it's fun to feed them. 

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The only TLD wolves that are like the wolves of the real world are the wolves in Pilgrim playmode. In any other mode they will attack you. Thus they are a threat. More than any other threat, more than any other animal, wolves have been responsible for player deaths in TLD. By at least a factor of 10X the next cause. 

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9 minutes ago, KD7BCH said:

The only TLD wolves that are like the wolves of the real world are the wolves in Pilgrim playmode. In any other mode they will attack you. Thus they are a threat. More than any other threat, more than any other animal, wolves have been responsible for player deaths in TLD. By at least a factor of 10X the next cause. 

Thats an excellent point

 

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I understand the argument against invalidating wolf risk and a spear or club can never negate wolf risk, anymore than trying to use a bow and arrow and sometimes missing can, there should always be some risk. However the risk should be higher not carrying a club, not carrying a spear, not using your knife, hatchet, or sharp rock to fashion a spear, and if you have a spear it should be effective at both allowing you to joust as well as attack. A wolf should also be able to run off with a spear, or pull it from you, things that change up the experience. If you act aggressive with a spear it should reduce the odds that a wolf will simply come up to you and then move off, etc. All about balance. It really is too bad these things are being advanced in the game instead of UX/UI changes which nobody asked for, nobody demanded, and nobody now thinks are needed because the UI was largely made great almost a year ago. 

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1 hour ago, KD7BCH said:

The only TLD wolves that are like the wolves of the real world are the wolves in Pilgrim playmode. In any other mode they will attack you. Thus they are a threat. More than any other threat, more than any other animal, wolves have been responsible for player deaths in TLD. By at least a factor of 10X the next cause. 

 

And yet they are easily avoidable. Don't forget, the point of TLD is to die, it's just a matter of how long it takes. If you are careful you can last a long time, mess with the wolves and sometimes you are the kibble.

 

Not an argument here, but I would have thought more people freeze to death. Now I am curious.

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Oh G, with a 95% death rate to wolves, and after 3 years of supporting the game, I must have missed that, the point is to die to wolves. Sure. Here I thought the theme of the game was "How far will you go to survive?" Evidently the answer is not far enough to sit on your ass and spend an hour making a spear and halving your odds of dying to a wolf.

Respectfully, we disagree. Wolves are not easily avoidable in all circumstances, and in some they are unavoidable which means you have to deal with them. Particularly in Interloper in your first 10 days your odds of it being a wolf getting you are something like 90%, while your odds of survival might be better it gets annoying dying repetitive deaths. 

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50 minutes ago, KD7BCH said:

Oh G, with a 95% death rate to wolves, and after 3 years of supporting the game, I must have missed that, the point is to die to wolves. Sure. Here I thought the theme of the game was "How far will you go to survive?" Evidently the answer is not far enough to sit on your ass and spend an hour making a spear and halving your odds of dying to a wolf.

Respectfully, we disagree. Wolves are not easily avoidable in all circumstances, and in some they are unavoidable which means you have to deal with them. Particularly in Interloper in your first 10 days your odds of it being a wolf getting you are something like 90%, while your odds of survival might be better it gets annoying dying repetitive deaths. 

 

Most of my deaths are from freezing, I think anyways. I don't really keep track. As I said, my game experience is predominately on Voyager so results may vary. I honestly think you Interloper guys are crazy. I tried it once, that level of difficulty is for people who enjoy being eaten and being frozen. You should all name your avatar popcycle..

 

Maybe at that level of difficulty you need a spear, but if you "need it" maybe it's too difficult.  We can agree to disagree, But the thread title is "why spears NEED to be in this game"

not "Spears would be cool and add to immersion".

 

BTW, I would much rather they add spears and compass' for those who want them than change the interface again.

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7 hours ago, Lovehandel said:

I lived in wolf country for many years and never even heard of a wolf attacking anyone.

That's because you live in North America, (I'm guessing), where wolves have, for the most part, learned to be afraid of humans. In the rest of the world where wolves live, and in the US/Canada of 100 years ago, it's a different story. It's interesting to see how many attacks were not due to rabies.

Wolf attacks on humans

List of wolf attacks in North America

List of wolf attacks

 

Notice that even in recent years, there have been a number of fatal wolf attacks in the US and Canada.. generally when other prey is scarce. Of particular interest are some of the incidents 90+ years ago, where people had managed to fight off a dozen or more wolves before being taken down.. 

Many of the non-fatal attacks listed include interesting details of wolf behaviour as well.

Edited by JAFO
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