Docterrok

Why Spears NEED to be in this game.

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41 minutes ago, ThePenguinBusinessman said:

Yeah, considering narrow hallways of the dam, it would be likely, with Fluffy's already glitchy AI, to end up having Fluffy impaled on your spear without you doing anything.

thats why the AI needs to be revamped.

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50 minutes ago, Docterrok said:

thats why the AI needs to be revamped.

Absolutely. Outside wolf AI is okay, but indoor AI is near abysmal. I would love if anyone from Hinterland would read this, as I think that along with many small updates from the roadmap, AI improvements should be high on the list.

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On 5/12/2017 at 2:51 PM, Timber Wolf said:

Whoa, did you wake up on the wrong side of the bedroll today?

Yes.

On 5/12/2017 at 2:57 PM, togg said:

The game don't simulates reality. It use chuncks of reality to do game things.

That's exactly the reasons why we have parasites and don't have spears. I'm glad I was able to get to the bottom of the issue, there're already a lot of game that try to do "all the things possible", what drove me to this one is that it doesn't.

It does what now ? What it even means ? You argument is being destroyed by your own logic, as it simply states that anything goes.

On 5/12/2017 at 3:03 PM, King.Of.Print said:

in game balance when you put something you have to ask: what is gonna happen? how people will use it, how they gonna exploit it.
you spear is a very simple weapon, mostly like short range, or it will compete with the bow and the rifle, so right is one problem solve, make it short to medium range.
or you can go on and on about how to make the three viable, in a way that you nerve end up with a win-win scenario.

I have no idea what you said.

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next you need to work it around the AI, now the best approach is the KISS, Kept It Simple, Stupid.
so the best way is just use what exist, no need to go complex because of a spear, right?
that's means the rabbit and deer will run away, useless the player use the broken stealth mechanic, who should be fix.

No. As every feature exists as part of a whole game, it must be properly balanced and measured against all other features it affects. Simplicity is not a goal on its own.

Gamebreaking bugs are irrelevant to the topic at hand, as they exist separately. And there are a lot of them and many have been present in the game for a long time, with devs doing absolutely nothing to address them. Hunger exploit, allowing to survive on like 600 calories a day, or condition management would each be worth couple pages of rant by themselves, as they are both gamebreaking and completely unrealistic.

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now, that means it's possible to set up a "stab ambush" or should not be? do we allow for the player to use the speak while in crouch mode? do why not? how many times does the player is able to pull off the Kill? if is a 100% do we use a RGN, but that's a bad mechanic, since is outside of players control, and that's a player action.
now, it get very, very complex, you see, some game are better with RGN in some mechanics, but RNG does not work well in another case.
in the speak case, is awful, since the player have little in the way of risk manage, and even if can make a good set-up, RNG is decide factor. your survival is more drive by luck that by your skill and know-how. and that's not nice.

So, first you refer to exploits that should be fixed anyway, so they are not really related to spear on their own(if you view every feature on background of existing bugs and exploits, not on their own merit, then nothing ever should be added or changed, as those exploits will affect everything in negative way anyway). Then you actually get on point. Yes, spear should be possible to be used while crouched, but it should have lower thrust, as person cannot properly throw it from that position, so it would affect it range, arc and damage in a negative fashion. Considering that it range would be fairly poor to begin with, good luck getting that close to a deer.

Spear effectiveness should have both skill and rng mechanics in place. And there is nothing complex about that if you know what your end goal is. There is just one line of code fro rng calculation, even combined with other modification it would fairly simple.

In case of spear risk is acceptable, because, yet again, you completely blow everything out of proportion. Player usually can fire off one, maybe two rifle shots of arrows, when animal is charging him. He may hit it or miss it, if it changes direction, and rarely have time to do anything else. Should he fire at relay of fairly small change of hitting it, but have time to reload or let animal get close and hope to put it down with one precise shot to the head. There is plenty of rng in already existing ways of fighting animals.

Hell, whole game is a pack of rng mechanics, starting from where you start and ending to what loot and how much and where it spawns, including weather, animal density in the region and selection of items player chose to take with him during exploration.

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let's forget the interaction and jump to "how to make" and "durability".
the player could make the spear using the following mechanics already in the game, again is the lazy KISS approach, but believe-me, if you play a zachtronics game you learn very quickly the why.

  • workbench
  • forge
  • both of the above

now... what materials? new materials? is made out of reclaimed wood? the same material that the arrow shafts? bow shafts metal? (by the way, is steel? is feels more like aluminium...)
and the weitgh, durability is direct linked to the material used, and the tip is another history.

and i even got to the wolves, why? because is gonna be freaking hard to get those gimmicks working.
so that means one of the best ways to put a spear in the game is:
 

  • medium range
  • physics base
  • find a easy way to make it work against wolves without eliminating they menace.

so... in a nut shell:
you have two problems with your wish, that is just one:
spear is useless.

I wonder, is it translator or you just dont get it. Again, you make bunch of conjectures, from worst possible point of view, that essentially sums up to "it will be bad, because i said it so". By that definition any feature can be voted down and defined to be useless, purely on the basis that you dont like it.

Considering that viewing from purely logical standpoint rooted in real life, spears could be rather invaluable assets in the game. 

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Nice idea, but how it's gonna work?
no, wrong answer, give us the schematics, and them we need to talk about how it's gonna work, and if it's viable.


P.S.: wrong again, so far you have said something in the "we gonna build a wall, and it's gonna separate U.S.A from Mexico, and Mexico is gonna pay for it" style.

Simple, spear would be a short to medium range throwing weapon(aka javelin), coming in 3 versions. Basic is made of either log or sapling(sapling version would be more durable, have better handling, damage and take a lot less time to make), that can further be "baked"(to harden it) in fire. More advanced version would have a metal tip, made ether with knife(just tie it on top of it, no tools needed) or metal tip(that must be forged). And final version also would leather bindings for better grip.

So, hunting with spear would not be particularly simple due to several factors. First, it would have effective range of maybe 10 meters. Second would be the fact that player should account for it curved trajectory. Third would be fact that even if hit it is not guaranteed to be lethal even if hit(i generally dislike current system where wounded animals, with exception of bears, bleed out to death always), depending on several factors, it may cause no damage(glanced hit), minor damage(while it drew blood, it entry angle would not provide penetration, merely pissing animal off), severe damage(but possible not lethal still, usually resulting in animal running away) and critical damage(that either kills animal on spot or weakens it significantly, that further result in animal either trying to flee or lunge at player, but with far lesser force). Fourth is that after throwing a spear player may lose his balance for couple seconds and would require some time before he can pull out a different weapon, meaning that essentially he would get only one shot at it.

PS. it would be so fun if he would actually build it.

On 5/12/2017 at 5:28 PM, Ohbal said:

In this game, the AI is terrible. They always attack from the front. They don't circle you. They don't try to flank you. So, a defensive weapon as the spear, which is usually used forward, will probably just meet the charging animal 99 times out of 100. This would make dealing with wolves quite easy, in my humble (hopefully not idiotic) opinion. If your idea is to implement a spear that no one can use cause its too hard, then I still don't see the point of adding it. Nobody needs years of practice to know how to basic defend yourself with a spear.

You describe problem with animal behavior, not spear itself. It comes down to implementation.

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I don't see the spear, a completely renewable weapon if implemented (as sapplings and scrap metal are basically infinite) the same way you do:

The riffe's balance is the limited ammo. 

The bow balance is the lack of a reliable aiming system. 

With a spear, you wouldn't face any of this, and unless the AI gets a huge improvement, the "art" of defense would be quite easy.

Your presumption is that spear would be always 100% accurate. Without any basis to it. In terms of aiming it would be even worse than bow, as player have to roughly estimate where spear would go. Compared to same bow, where you can actually see fairly precise area where arrow would fly.

On 5/12/2017 at 7:57 PM, Mel Guille said:

Arguments work best when they are about the ideas being discussed, not the people making them.

Reference was towards argument used, not person making it. Ideas can be bad, without being an indicator of person intelligence.

On 5/12/2017 at 11:55 PM, Boston123 said:

That completely defeats the "purpose" of a spear.

Instead, the devs should fix the asinine + imbecilic animal attack mechanics.

If having one of the simplest weapons available to man "breaks the animal AI"...... beef up the animal AI? Instead of derp-charging you, like ...... well, like zombies (I always laugh whenever I read the 'no zombies" line on the store page), have them actually behave like intelligent animals with self-preservation instincts. Have them use pack-tactics, hit-and-run, etc. Getting attacked by wolves should be an "OH GOD NO" moment, not an "-eyeroll- not again!" moment.

Just throwing that out there.

One of ideas that i had some time ago is wolves having ability to howl(not always) and attracting other wolves in near vicinity. Id prefer that instead of wolves begin evenly spread around map they would have several designated areas, where majority of them concentrate(as packs sticks together), with few of them moving about whole map, eg scouts(or solitary outsiders, that are not part of any pack). Making those areas extremely dangerous to navigate, but with possibility that those "dens"(as wolves do not use dens in winter) spawning loot, as wolves may drag all kind of crap back "home"(pls, dont refer to caves with bones laying around them, animals dont do that - corpses attract other predators and diseases, so most carnivores never have them near their bases, generally eating where prey is killed and dragging home only large chunks of meat that are consumed immediately afterwards by other members of the pack). And every now and then pack would move on(as in real life, where packs stay in one area till its hunted out, and then move to the next one,  that is why packs generally control large territories, measured in dozens of square miles, as they rotate their hunting grounds), allowing player to scout those area for possible additional loot. So at random intervals, from few weeks to few months, wolves could completely reallocate, making previously dangerous area safe, while either moving out from map(reducing or completely removing wolf and deer population on entire map) or moving to a different spot on same map.

On 5/13/2017 at 2:02 AM, Mel Guille said:

But yes, our main focus is building an experience that evokes the kinds of feelings your survivor might have -- a sense of vulnerability to the power of nature, the knowledge that the choices you make matter, determination in the face of adversity. Realism can help with these things, but it's not the end goal.

Yes, but not being able to do most basic things kinda chips off chunks from it. I love game atmosphere, but every time i think "why i cant take that piece of basalt and tie it to this piece of wood" or "this log looks a lot like a good club" and then have to resolve to punching wolf to death(???) because i havent found anything better.

On 5/13/2017 at 4:34 AM, TWM said:

So is urinating and defecation, but I don't see many people arguing that should be in the game. The primary question is: would it make for more interesting and immersive gameplay?

Those are implied by default and sitting on a toilet is hardly an interesting experience even in real life.

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You've got flares and torches to ward off wolves, thus serving more or less the same function a spear would. I'm reading that throwing rocks will be added as a mechanic soon. So what problem gameplay wise is the spear trying to solve? Or is it merely a mental thing - it would make the player sitting behind his computer feel les exposed?

Maybe rifle and bow should be removed them ? As they "serve more or less same function" as flares and torches. Maybe throwing rocks should be scrapped for the same reason ?

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Let's take a step back and look at the way the game is set up: the player is thrown into a sandbox with all kinds of environmental factors that will kill him, either fast or slow. He's forced to prioritize his needs: protection from the cold (shelter, fire, clothing); water; food. So he has to scour the different maps for shelter and resources. To complicate this set of self-appointed missions, Hinterland has the maps being patrolled by highly agressive wolves, that attack on sight and penalize the player for getting into a tussle with them; basically functioning as zombies would in other apocalyptic survival games (dodge the zombies, until you can take some of them out!)

Will kill him ? Arent proper approach should be "may kill him" ? Why bother at all if youre guaranteed to die, regardless if what you do, how inventive and determined you are ?

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This creates a sense of danger, hightened awareness and dread. You're safe some of the time, but in some areas you're on permanent edge. 'Wait, I hear rustling. Is that a wolf? F****, where is it?' Also, it increases the risk-reward trade-off. If you manage to clutch that prized tool from the mauling jaws of death, the pleasure center of your brain awards you with a sense of victory and lots of dopamine.

For me wolves create nothing but annoyance. Due to wolves being fairly weak and main threat being lack of antiseptic to treat their bites, they are not particularly dangerous on their own, with main issue being lack of medication. As infection is made always guaranteed without using extremely limited resource, and always lethal as result. At the same time i cant take on multiple of them, melee kill them and walk away with just a few bruises. And even if i get severely hurt, all it takes is one good night sleep and im as good as new. There is huge disbalance between various features even within same category(like can just sleep off being mauled by 4 wolves in one day, but even if one of them infected me with some crap, then im done for, as there is only 2 ways of treating this condition, and i cant even just wash it with water to improve my chances at survival), not to mention across whole game.

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Problem with the spear is: it mitigates this sense of danger further. Because now you'd have an easy to make tool with which to poke back if the wolf tries to come at you to take a chunk out of your flesh. And it doesn't require much shooting skill with a precise aim at the right moment either. With the spear in your hand, you could just keep prodding and keep the wolf at bay until you manage to hit it - now you've wounded the wolf without spending a bullet or arrow or tearing up your clothing. (At least that's how I'd envision the spear working, game mechanics wise)

Question of implementation, as spears do not work in this way even in real life. Try to hit with a stick chaotically fast-moving ball. Youd be surprised how hard it can be.

 

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11 hours ago, ThePenguinBusinessman said:

Absolutely. Outside wolf AI is okay, but indoor AI is near abysmal. I would love if anyone from Hinterland would read this, as I think that along with many small updates from the roadmap, AI improvements should be high on the list.

Last part of wolf attack ai, when it just charges player head on for last few meters, making it extremely easy target for headshots, should be completely redone.

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4 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Those are implied by default and sitting on a toilet is hardly an interesting experience even in real life.

Neither is sleeping or drinking water. Or doing chores like collecting water of harvesting wood.

In fact, I'd say that having to take into account that you might not want to relieve yourself indoors because of hygiene issues while having to reckon with wolves and the cold if you go outside to take a piss (or worse, a dump) might actually create some interesting challenges.

Oh, and then there's the issue of toilet paper running out. Well, you might use a newspaper, but that would create hard choices again: if I use the newspaper for tinder now, I might run into some literal doodoo later on when I'm pressed to take dump and I have to use a cloth (or two!).

Imagine yourself in a fishing hut. You got a bowel movement going: now what are you going to do? Take a dump in the ice fishing hole? You could crap in a corner, after a couple of hours that'll just turn into a frozen lump of menure; but then what are you going to do with it. You could let it sit there, but then next time you use the potbelly stove, it's going to thaw. Ieeeuwwww!

So you better move it somewhere else. Throw it in the sea or something. But with what? You wouldn't want to touch it with your hands.

Basically, defecation and urinating might make for some very interesting challenges. Way more interesting than the introduction of a spear in any case.

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1 hour ago, TWM said:

Neither is sleeping or drinking water. Or doing chores like collecting water of harvesting wood.

In fact, I'd say that having to take into account that you might not want to relieve yourself indoors because of hygiene issues while having to reckon with wolves and the cold if you go outside to take a piss (or worse, a dump) might actually create some interesting challenges.

Oh, and then there's the issue of toilet paper running out. Well, you might use a newspaper, but that would create hard choices again: if I use the newspaper for tinder now, I might run into some literal doodoo later on when I'm pressed to take dump and I have to use a cloth (or two!).

Imagine yourself in a fishing hut. You got a bowel movement going: now what are you going to do? Take a dump in the ice fishing hole? You could crap in a corner, after a couple of hours that'll just turn into a frozen lump of menure; but then what are you going to do with it. You could let it sit there, but then next time you use the potbelly stove, it's going to thaw. Ieeeuwwww!

So you better move it somewhere else. Throw it in the sea or something. But with what? You wouldn't want to touch it with your hands.

Basically, defecation and urinating might make for some very interesting challenges. Way more interesting than the introduction of a spear in any case.

Huh?

...... Why are you making taking a crap so complicated? 

Even disregarding the whole "OH NOES POOP IS GWOSS" thing you have going on, waste elimination is hilariously simple in a survival situation, especially when it is cold out.

Do your business in a can, clean yourself with some water (it doesn't even have to be drinkable, just snowmelt), and throw it outside. Done. Problem solved.

If you don't have a can, you can use sticks, or just wait for the thing to freeze and chuck it outside.

So long as you don't "shit where you eat" and smear it all over everything, it isn't nearly as big a problem as you make it out to be.

Stop being so childish.

Edited by Boston123
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20 hours ago, Boston123 said:

Huh?

...... Why are you making taking a crap so complicated? 

Even disregarding the whole "OH NOES POOP IS GWOSS" thing you have going on, waste elimination is hilariously simple in a survival situation, especially when it is cold out.

Do your business in a can, clean yourself with some water (it doesn't even have to be drinkable, just snowmelt), and throw it outside. Done. Problem solved.

If you don't have a can, you can use sticks, or just wait for the thing to freeze and chuck it outside.

So long as you don't "shit where you eat" and smear it all over everything, it isn't nearly as big a problem as you make it out to be.

Stop being so childish.

I think this is detracting from the discussion... 

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On 14/05/2017 at 6:23 AM, Dirmagnos said:

In case of spear risk is acceptable, because, yet again, you completely blow everything out of proportion. Player usually can fire off one, maybe two rifle shots of arrows, when animal is charging him. He may hit it or miss it, if it changes direction, and rarely have time to do anything else. Should he fire at relay of fairly small change of hitting it, but have time to reload or let animal get close and hope to put it down with one precise shot to the head. There is plenty of rng in already existing ways of fighting animals.

Hell, whole game is a pack of rng mechanics, starting from where you start and ending to what loot and how much and where it spawns, including weather, animal density in the region and selection of items player chose to take with him during exploration.

I wonder, is it translator or you just dont get it. Again, you make bunch of conjectures, from worst possible point of view, that essentially sums up to "it will be bad, because i said it so". By that definition any feature can be voted down and defined to be useless, purely on the basis that you dont like it.

Considering that viewing from purely logical standpoint rooted in real life, spears could be rather invaluable assets in the game. 

Simple, spear would be a short to medium range throwing weapon(aka javelin), coming in 3 versions. Basic is made of either log or sapling(sapling version would be more durable, have better handling, damage and take a lot less time to make), that can further be "baked"(to harden it) in fire. More advanced version would have a metal tip, made ether with knife(just tie it on top of it, no tools needed) or metal tip(that must be forged). And final version also would leather bindings for better grip.

So, hunting with spear would not be particularly simple due to several factors. First, it would have effective range of maybe 10 meters. Second would be the fact that player should account for it curved trajectory. Third would be fact that even if hit it is not guaranteed to be lethal even if hit(i generally dislike current system where wounded animals, with exception of bears, bleed out to death always), depending on several factors, it may cause no damage(glanced hit), minor damage(while it drew blood, it entry angle would not provide penetration, merely pissing animal off), severe damage(but possible not lethal still, usually resulting in animal running away) and critical damage(that either kills animal on spot or weakens it significantly, that further result in animal either trying to flee or lunge at player, but with far lesser force). Fourth is that after throwing a spear player may lose his balance for couple seconds and would require some time before he can pull out a different weapon, meaning that essentially he would get only one shot at it.

PS. it would be so fun if he would actually build it.

I not trying to say "it's bad because I said so", I tried to say "it that can be a loot of trouble for so little".
besides, I do blow the problem, into bits, but you are making a mess with them.
RNG is Random Number Generator, is the flip of a coin, destiny if you will, simulator in computers.
it's full name is Pseudo Random Number Generator, RGN is Random Generated Number.
now, what's RNG or RGN in animal fighting? well, little.
maybe the damage part, the damage on the arrow is for sure, but it's was a limited scope, is just there like salt in food.
but believe, is better to just avoid RNG and RGN.
ok, maybe I am teaching the teacher how to teach, but in wikipedia:

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Random number generators have applications in gambling, statistical sampling, computer simulation, cryptography, completely randomized design, and other areas where producing an unpredictable result is desirable.

that's why you use them, and avoid them.

ok, so far you are talking about throwing spears, I wonder, do other people will be fine with only this version.
now, a note: I talking about a game design view, they already have problems to solve, such the bad wolves AI, and the stupid OP stealth mechanics.
the more simple is to make the spear work in game, more easy will be to convince the team to implement it.
simple put, you almost sold your idea to me, but how about the not throwing version, maybe I over looked it (if so, sorry).

in short:
is a good concept, I don't like the RNG Bit, but i will overlook it.
the only (big) problem is that you spear is just a arrow without a bow, and is common sense that you can't just throw but also stab with it.
useless you are talking about this type of spear:
 

I think it would break very easy.
that's said, still a problem the fact that there spear and the bow overlap so much.

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1 hour ago, King.Of.Print said:

I not trying to say "it's bad because I said so", I tried to say "it that can be a loot of trouble for so little".
besides, I do blow the problem, into bits, but you are making a mess with them.

Maybe i misunderstood. Apologies in this case.

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RNG is Random Number Generator... that's why you use them, and avoid them.

You do understand that tLD is filled with events that are determined by rng script ? Spawns, weather, loot, etc

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ok, so far you are talking about throwing spears, I wonder, do other people will be fine with only this version.
now, a note: I talking about a game design view, they already have problems to solve, such the bad wolves AI, and the stupid OP stealth mechanics.
the more simple is to make the spear work in game, more easy will be to convince the team to implement it.
simple put, you almost sold your idea to me, but how about the not throwing version, maybe I over looked it (if so, sorry).

I have serious doubts about using spear as melee weapon. Aside of simple fact that player is dealing with intelligent and extremely agile animal, player is not particularly agile himself. With all the layers of clothing, limited vision and cold. Plus, he is not a professional spear thrower himself(would be nice to have professions in sandbox tho).

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that's said, still a problem the fact that there spear and the bow overlap so much.

There are a lot of items that overlap. Like what we recently got, with ton of new clothing items, that all serve exactly same purpose(without actually doing much needed clothing overhaul). I personally like variability. Choices.

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On 13/05/2017 at 3:34 AM, TWM said:

So is urinating and defecation, but I don't see many people arguing that should be in the game. The primary question is: would it make for more interesting and immersive gameplay?

My opinion is yes. It could make confrontation very dynamic.

Edited by Vinceofpyrenees
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1 hour ago, Vinceofpyrenees said:

My opinion is yes. It could make confrontation very dynamic.

Thats what I was thinking.

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5 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

 

I have serious doubts about using spear as melee weapon. Aside of simple fact that player is dealing with intelligent and extremely agile animal, player is not particularly agile himself. With all the layers of clothing, limited vision and cold. Plus, he is not a professional spear thrower himself(would be nice to have professions in sandbox tho).

 

Why? Jabbing and stabbing with a spear is almost infinitely easier than throwing it, as well as being almost infinitely more effective.

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42 minutes ago, Boston123 said:

Why? Jabbing and stabbing with a spear is almost infinitely easier than throwing it, as well as being almost infinitely more effective.

I think the simplicity of it is actually it's downfall, it'd make things too easy to kill. But I still think there's a way for it to be implemented.

Edited by Docterrok

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Just now, Docterrok said:

I think the simplicity of it is actually it's downfall, it'd make things too easy to kill. But I still think there's a way for it to be implemented.

Not if you miss.

With a spear, you would get one chance to hit an attacking animal. One. Miss, and the animal would be on you before you would be able to pull another weapon, leading to longer fight times, and the chance for increased damage.

On the other hand, if you connect, you could cause a great deal of damage to the animal in return.

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1 hour ago, Boston123 said:

Not if you miss.

With a spear, you would get one chance to hit an attacking animal. One. Miss, and the animal would be on you before you would be able to pull another weapon, leading to longer fight times, and the chance for increased damage.

On the other hand, if you connect, you could cause a great deal of damage to the animal in return.

Excellent point, but would a spear affect a bear at all?

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49 minutes ago, Docterrok said:

Excellent point, but would a spear affect a bear at all?

In real life, yes. People hunt black bear with spears semi-regularly.

In-game ..... these are the same animals that shrug off multiple .303 rounds, the same bullets that were used to kill elephants.

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14 hours ago, Boston123 said:

Why? Jabbing and stabbing with a spear is almost infinitely easier than throwing it, as well as being almost infinitely more effective.

Jabbing and stabbing air or a log may be easy, but hitting small chaotically moving target... not really. Plus the fact that when player stabs with it, there is small delay, as he pulls it back, before being able to use it again. So if you miss, and wolf will take that opportunity, it could mean small recuperation delay before player can start fighting back.

By that definition shooting is even easier. Yet people still miss.

Throwing gives player small delay to prepare for wolf attack. Plus there could always be small possibility for wolf to be scared away, even if player misses or just grazes it(wolves and bears have rather thick fur and while spear is heavier than arrow, it lacks arrow penetration force due to lower speed). We are about to get rocks that do exactly that, but have no offensive value at the same time.

As you have mentioned in later post, spear is a tradeoff weapon. It has capability to deal notable amount of damage, but mostly player wont be so lucky.

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7 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Jabbing and stabbing air or a log may be easy, but hitting small chaotically moving target... not really. Plus the fact that when player stabs with it, there is small delay, as he pulls it back, before being able to use it again. So if you miss, and wolf will take that opportunity, it could mean small recuperation delay before player can start fighting back.

By that definition shooting is even easier. Yet people still miss.

Throwing gives player small delay to prepare for wolf attack. Plus there could always be small possibility for wolf to be scared away, even if player misses or just grazes it(wolves and bears have rather thick fur and while spear is heavier than arrow, it lacks arrow penetration force due to lower speed). We are about to get rocks that do exactly that, but have no offensive value at the same time.

As you have mentioned in later post, spear is a tradeoff weapon. It has capability to deal notable amount of damage, but mostly player wont be so lucky.

I totally agree, but I would much rather prefer to KEEP it in my hands.

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Throwing a spear would be no different than throwing your gun at the attacker. In both cases you are left unarmed.

 

I really don't think the game needs spears, but it would not bother me at all if they were included. Like everything else, I can choose to carry it or not. I play mostly voyager and think on that level a spear would be overpowered. If packs of wolves were more prevalent I could see the use/need for a spear. As it is I can avoid or engage the existing wildlife as I choose. Unless I am careless of course. In that regard I don't thinks spears should be there to save us. I probably would not carry one, I like to travel light.

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55 minutes ago, Lovehandel said:

I really don't think the game needs spears, but it would not bother me at all if they were included. Like everything else, I can choose to carry it or not. I play mostly voyager and think on that level a spear would be overpowered. If packs of wolves were more prevalent I could see the use/need for a spear. As it is I can avoid or engage the existing wildlife as I choose. Unless I am careless of course. In that regard I don't thinks spears should be there to save us.

This is kind-of what I think, too.

The animal AI would need a significant adjustment before (or at the same time as) spears got put into the game. The AI could do with an improvement, anyway, regardless of other features, and for me it's a much higher priority than having spears. There are other things that I'd rank far higher than having spears as well - cooking/fire mechanics and more indepth injury/ailment management, especially.

I could see spears being a good addition, both in gameplay terms and because "that's what I would do if I were in that situation", but ONLY if accompanied by more general AI changes. Without them, spears might actually make the game worse. 

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14 hours ago, Pillock said:

This is kind-of what I think, too.

The animal AI would need a significant adjustment before (or at the same time as) spears got put into the game. The AI could do with an improvement, anyway, regardless of other features, and for me it's a much higher priority than having spears. There are other things that I'd rank far higher than having spears as well - cooking/fire mechanics and more indepth injury/ailment management, especially.

I could see spears being a good addition, both in gameplay terms and because "that's what I would do if I were in that situation", but ONLY if accompanied by more general AI changes. Without them, spears might actually make the game worse. 

I think stealthy wolves would be horrific, but awesome!

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On 5/14/2017 at 4:25 AM, Dirmagnos said:

Last part of wolf attack ai, when it just charges player head on for last few meters, making it extremely easy target for headshots, should be completely redone.

I totally agree. It would also be great if wolves had a pack mentality.

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Hello all. I posted the below idea for spear implementation on /r/thelongdark and was told I should post it here on the Hinterland forums. 

A balanced way to implement spears to provide additional early-game options. 

Spears are one of the earliest weapons created by man and are present in nearly every culture. At the most simple level, spears are simply sharpened sticks. Using a metal/stone/bone/obsidian spearhead is usually advised, as that is more deadly and more durable than a fire-hardened wooden spearhead. One easy way to accomplish this is to lash a knife on a pole to make an impromptu spear. 

  • Spears using a knife or forged metal spearhead have a cumulative 20% chance to break when used. This means a max of five thrusts before you have to get a new sapling and gut to rebuild.
  • Wooden-tip spears are easy to make (fire-harden the sharpened wooden spearhead) but wooden spearheads are fragile and have a 50% cumulative chance to break.

You can throw a spear but is difficult once you're past a certain range (much shorter than bow/shotgun) and it's a one shot-solution as you have to go to your knife, hatchet, or prybar since you've thrown your spear away.

The advantage of a spear is that it is an easily-craftable weapon with a bit of range, but it is fragile and quickly uses up saplings that could be used for bows/arrows. Probably good for early game until you get a bow/arrow, but too fragile for regular use.

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If you make spears easily craftable what is to stop me from carrying two or three of them. Throw one, if I miss, equip another one.

 

If you make them require saplings, no way would I use one to make a spear when it will be a bow or three arrows. That's approximately 15 shots. You will not successfully hunt dear very often with a spear.

 

If you are going to herd dear towards a wolf and chase the wolf away with the spear that's fine, but then don't tell me you want a spear for realism's sake.

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1 hour ago, Lovehandel said:

If you make spears easily craftable what is to stop me from carrying two or three of them. Throw one, if I miss, equip another one.

 

If you make them require saplings, no way would I use one to make a spear when it will be a bow or three arrows. That's approximately 15 shots. You will not successfully hunt dear very often with a spear.

 

If you are going to herd dear towards a wolf and chase the wolf away with the spear that's fine, but then don't tell me you want a spear for realism's sake.

It's all about balancing.

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