Docterrok

Why Spears NEED to be in this game.

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40 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

By this same idiotic logic,

Whoa, did you wake up on the wrong side of the bedroll today?

Or is there some other reason you feel the need to be insulting in your responses?

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53 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

The fact that player cant do most basic and obvious things in a game that simulates reality is stupidest thing possible. And at the same time we have snow shelters and parasites that make no sense at all.

The game don't simulates reality. It use chuncks of reality to do game things.

That's exactly the reasons why we have parasites and don't have spears. I'm glad I was able to get to the bottom of the issue, there're already a lot of game that try to do "all the things possible", what drove me to this one is that it doesn't.

Edited by togg
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17 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

You essentially said nothing. With proper implementation spear can be both balanced and useful tool.

stop right there....
I said something, you just did get it, I hate having to give the long version, everybody get lost when I give the long version.
but you need it anyway, so find the north for me.

in game balance when you put something you have to ask: what is gonna happen? how people will use it, how they gonna exploit it.
you spear is a very simple weapon, mostly like short range, or it will compete with the bow and the rifle, so right is one problem solve, make it short to medium range.
or you can go on and on about how to make the three viable, in a way that you nerve end up with a win-win scenario.

next you need to work it around the AI, now the best approach is the KISS, Kept It Simple, Stupid.
so the best way is just use what exist, no need to go complex because of a spear, right?
that's means the rabbit and deer will run away, useless the player use the broken stealth mechanic, who should be fix.

now, that means it's possible to set up a "stab ambush" or should not be? do we allow for the player to use the speak while in crouch mode? do why not? how many times does the player is able to pull off the Kill? if is a 100% do we use a RGN, but that's a bad mechanic, since is outside of players control, and that's a player action.
now, it get very, very complex, you see, some game are better with RGN in some mechanics, but RNG does not work well in another case.
in the speak case, is awful, since the player have little in the way of risk manage, and even if can make a good set-up, RNG is decide factor. your survival is more drive by luck that by your skill and know-how. and that's not nice.

let's forget the interaction and jump to "how to make" and "durability".
the player could make the spear using the following mechanics already in the game, again is the lazy KISS approach, but believe-me, if you play a zachtronics game you learn very quickly the why.

  • workbench
  • forge
  • both of the above

now... what materials? new materials? is made out of reclaimed wood? the same material that the arrow shafts? bow shafts metal? (by the way, is steel? is feels more like aluminium...)
and the weitgh, durability is direct linked to the material used, and the tip is another history.

and i even got to the wolves, why? because is gonna be freaking hard to get those gimmicks working.
so that means one of the best ways to put a spear in the game is:
 

  • medium range
  • physics base
  • find a easy way to make it work against wolves without eliminating they menace.

so... in a nut shell:
you have two problems with your wish, that is just one:
spear is useless.

deer and rabbits get scare too easy, using a spear against them can end up in a big waste of time.
wolves don't scare, and now you have to fight them with the spear, and that get trick.

and you said I said nothing, look again, you have a wish, and that means somebody need to work around it's problems, I think it whould be easy to them fixing the problem if you show a good and simple solution.
in sum:

Nice idea, but how it's gonna work?
no, wrong answer, give us the schematics, and them we need to talk about how it's gonna work, and if it's viable.


P.S.: wrong again, so far you have said something in the "we gonna build a wall, and it's gonna separate U.S.A from Mexico, and Mexico is gonna pay for it" style.

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3 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

What a load of bullshit. How exactly spear would render wolves harmless ? We are talking about poorly balanced stick with a piece of torn metal on top of it, wielded by person who have no idea what he is doing, and using it against fast smart and small target.

By this same idiotic logic, both bow and especially rifle are balance-breaking.

Just to take the nasty stuff out of the way first. You are a regular of this forums and I've been reading you for a while now. For the way you are able to join words together, you don't strike me as a dumb person. Therefore I don't think you are nearly retarded enough to not know that the way you write and share your thoughts will piss people off. I know for sure that you have been told your manners are not appropriate more than once in this forums, so my conclussion is that you are a bit of an arse that actually enjoys acting the way you do (or you seriously lack social skills). Well, good luck with that :)

Now, on the topic at hand. Let me give you my reasons for my conclussions about the spear issue. 

In this game, the AI is terrible. They always attack from the front. They don't circle you. They don't try to flank you. So, a defensive weapon as the spear, which is usually used forward, will probably just meet the charging animal 99 times out of 100. This would make dealing with wolves quite easy, in my humble (hopefully not idiotic) opinion. If your idea is to implement a spear that no one can use cause its too hard, then I still don't see the point of adding it. Nobody needs years of practice to know how to basic defend yourself with a spear. 

I don't see the spear, a completely renewable weapon if implemented (as sapplings and scrap metal are basically infinite) the same way you do:

The riffe's balance is the limited ammo. 

The bow balance is the lack of a reliable aiming system. 

With a spear, you wouldn't face any of this, and unless the AI gets a huge improvement, the "art" of defense would be quite easy.

2 hours ago, Timber Wolf said:

Whoa, did you wake up on the wrong side of the bedroll today?

Or is there some other reason you feel the need to be insulting in your responses?

Nah, its not a bedroll issue. Unless he has been waking up from the wrong side since he joined this forums :D 

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7 hours ago, togg said:

so you basically want to make the first days of interloper, the one that are more challenging and fun, easier! We already have some objects that can keep wolves at bay and are consumable or need some kind of thought (flares, torches, decoy). And they have nice mechanics built around them.

The fact that in the game you cannot do everything is a good thing.

I rather enjoy the difficulty of interloper. All I'm saying is, a person in any situation like TLD would naturally look for something to defend themselves with. 

 

If you survived a plane crash and were surrounded by hostile wolves...would you try and harvest guts or try to make something to defend yourself with?

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41 minutes ago, michael_martin said:

I rather enjoy the difficulty of interloper. All I'm saying is, a person in any situation like TLD would naturally look for something to defend themselves with. 

 

If you survived a plane crash and were surrounded by hostile wolves...would you try and harvest guts or try to make something to defend yourself with?

TLD is not a reality simulator.  In fact, there are 1000s (millions? billions?) of ways it FAILS as a reality simulator.

It's a fantastic game, however.  IMO having challenging survival and limited choices with interesting tradeoffs makes for a much better game than one that tries to simulate reality.  

Edited by Ruruwawa
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2 minutes ago, Ruruwawa said:

TLD is not a reality simulator.  In fact, there are 1000s (millions? billions?) of ways it FAILS as a reality simulator.

It's a fantastic game, however.  And a big part of what makes it compelling is that survival is challenging, and nearly every course of action has consequences and tradeoffs.  Trivialize survival and TLD is just a walking simulator.

I don't think anyone is saying its a "reality simulator." All anyone is saying is that it should be an option to craft a weapon as primitive as the stone age. How does adding the most basic defense implement that almost all civilizations have used (for thousands of years) "trivialize survival"? It's a long stick that you stab with for crying out loud. 

 

I'm not complaining about the game, I love it. I'm not even saying they should have spears by the next update. But I am saying to completely write the idea off is absurd. People fish with spears, hunt, etc even to this day. To sharpen a stick and maybe be able to throw it is not asking for some huge, game changing update.

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Everyone please remember that while it's fine to disagree, insults and negative personal comments are not helpful or welcome. This includes the use of slurs like "retarded." 

Arguments work best when they are about the ideas being discussed, not the people making them.

Thanks!

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I think a good balancing technique would be to make the spear really hard to make (forging point, more guts, etc) and it requires constant repair, like one jab brings it down 10%

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12 minutes ago, Docterrok said:

I think a good balancing technique would be to make the spear really hard to make (forging point, more guts, etc) and it requires constant repair, like one jab brings it down 10%

That completely defeats the "purpose" of a spear.

Instead, the devs should fix the asinine + imbecilic animal attack mechanics.

If having one of the simplest weapons available to man "breaks the animal AI"...... beef up the animal AI? Instead of derp-charging you, like ...... well, like zombies (I always laugh whenever I read the 'no zombies" line on the store page), have them actually behave like intelligent animals with self-preservation instincts. Have them use pack-tactics, hit-and-run, etc. Getting attacked by wolves should be an "OH GOD NO" moment, not an "-eyeroll- not again!" moment.

Just throwing that out there.

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9 minutes ago, Boston123 said:

That completely defeats the "purpose" of a spear.

Instead, the devs should fix the asinine + imbecilic animal attack mechanics.

If having one of the simplest weapons available to man "breaks the animal AI"...... beef up the animal AI? Instead of derp-charging you, like ...... well, like zombies (I always laugh whenever I read the 'no zombies" line on the store page), have them actually behave like intelligent animals with self-preservation instincts. Have them use pack-tactics, hit-and-run, etc. Getting attacked by wolves should be an "OH GOD NO" moment, not an "-eyeroll- not again!" moment.

Just throwing that out there.

Excellent point, the animals are too predictable, spears would just show there stupidity and reward it with meat and fur.

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13 minutes ago, Boston123 said:

That completely defeats the "purpose" of a spear.

Instead, the devs should fix the asinine + imbecilic animal attack mechanics.

If having one of the simplest weapons available to man "breaks the animal AI"...... beef up the animal AI? Instead of derp-charging you, like ...... well, like zombies (I always laugh whenever I read the 'no zombies" line on the store page), have them actually behave like intelligent animals with self-preservation instincts. Have them use pack-tactics, hit-and-run, etc. Getting attacked by wolves should be an "OH GOD NO" moment, not an "-eyeroll- not again!" moment.

Just throwing that out there.

If the AI gets improved, it would lead to all short of side effects in terms of gameplay. 

Until it does, and since we don't have a clue about what is really in the pipeline for next gameplay update besides what's announced in the cartographer update... the spear is a long term wish.

At the moment, as I said earlier, the game design seem to lead the player to mostly avoid confrontation.  

Edited by Ohbal

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9 minutes ago, Ohbal said:

If the AI gets improved, it would lead to all short of side effects in terms of gameplay. 

Until it does, and since we don't have a clue about what is really in the pipeline for next gameplay update besides what's announced in the cartographer update... the spear is a long term wish.

At the moment, as I said earlier, the game design seem to lead the player to mostly avoid confrontation.  

I feel the combat mechanics should emulate The Evil Within, which is Avoid, Hide, and only kill with stealth. I feel stealth killing can't be done in this game, a spear would fix that.

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2 minutes ago, Docterrok said:

I feel the combat mechanics should emulate The Evil Within, which is Avoid, Hide, and only kill with stealth. I feel stealth killing can't be done in this game, a spear would fix that.

Haven't played Evil Within, but TLD mechanics are not off where they should be. I'd say a bow kill, mid-long range is a stealth kill. Stealth implyes not being seen, you don't necessarily need to sneak until you can touch your target ;) 

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The Long Dark, as we know, has never been a game strictly about being "combative" with Mother Nature (although that does happen). Confrontation, hunting, struggles -- these are all part of your survival and exploration toolkit. But it's not the only path to follow. Avoidance and stealth are important tactics as well -- or deterrence if you think about a tool like the Distress Pistol or decoys. And with thrown flares and torches being re-introduced you'll see some different options there as well (and we look forward to hearing how you think these mechanics fit into the game as it is now). 

 

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I don't want the game realistic. I like the way it employs elements of realism to make a fun play-through. Face it, if it were realistic, the wolves would leave us alone, bears would be hibernating, you wouldn't be able to chip through 4' of ice with a knife, most of us could not start a fire and most of us would walk in the same circle till death.

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23 minutes ago, Lovehandel said:

Face it, if it were realistic, the wolves would leave us alone, bears would be hibernating, you wouldn't be able to chip through 4' of ice with a knife, most of us could not start a fire and most of us would walk in the same circle till death.

That sounds a bit like my very first run, actually!

But yes, our main focus is building an experience that evokes the kinds of feelings your survivor might have -- a sense of vulnerability to the power of nature, the knowledge that the choices you make matter, determination in the face of adversity. Realism can help with these things, but it's not the end goal.

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1 hour ago, Patrick Carlson said:

The Long Dark, as we know, has never been a game strictly about being "combative" with Mother Nature (although that does happen). Confrontation, hunting, struggles -- these are all part of your survival and exploration toolkit. But it's not the only path to follow. Avoidance and stealth are important tactics as well -- or deterrence if you think about a tool like the Distress Pistol. And with thrown flares and torches being re-introduced you'll see some different options there as well (and we look forward to hearing how you think these mechanics fit into the game as it is now). 

 

You make a good point, but isn't a spear a tool that has been true to nature for thousands of years?

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1 hour ago, Docterrok said:

You make a good point, but isn't a spear a tool that has been true to nature for thousands of years?

So is urinating and defecation, but I don't see many people arguing that should be in the game. The primary question is: would it make for more interesting and immersive gameplay?

You've got flares and torches to ward off wolves, thus serving more or less the same function a spear would. I'm reading that throwing rocks will be added as a mechanic soon. So what problem gameplay wise is the spear trying to solve? Or is it merely a mental thing - it would make the player sitting behind his computer feel les exposed?

Let's take a step back and look at the way the game is set up: the player is thrown into a sandbox with all kinds of environmental factors that will kill him, either fast or slow. He's forced to prioritize his needs: protection from the cold (shelter, fire, clothing); water; food. So he has to scour the different maps for shelter and resources. To complicate this set of self-appointed missions, Hinterland has the maps being patrolled by highly agressive wolves, that attack on sight and penalize the player for getting into a tussle with them; basically functioning as zombies would in other apocalyptic survival games (dodge the zombies, until you can take some of them out!)

This creates a sense of danger, hightened awareness and dread. You're safe some of the time, but in some areas you're on permanent edge. 'Wait, I hear rustling. Is that a wolf? F****, where is it?' Also, it increases the risk-reward trade-off. If you manage to clutch that prized tool from the mauling jaws of death, the pleasure center of your brain awards you with a sense of victory and lots of dopamine.

Problem with the spear is: it mitigates this sense of danger further. Because now you'd have an easy to make tool with which to poke back if the wolf tries to come at you to take a chunk out of your flesh. And it doesn't require much shooting skill with a precise aim at the right moment either. With the spear in your hand, you could just keep prodding and keep the wolf at bay until you manage to hit it - now you've wounded the wolf without spending a bullet or arrow or tearing up your clothing. (At least that's how I'd envision the spear working, game mechanics wise)

What would be the result? Well, those encounters might still be tense, but depending on the efficacy of the spear, they might get pretty lame pretty fast as well. 'Oh, wait. There's another obnoxious wolf. Let me get out my spear. Shoo! Shoo!' (wolf gets stung, whimpers off). So that sense of being in actual danger, and the permanent sense of dread would be off the table pretty fast once you'd obtain that spear. Imagine walking into the Dam: you could just walk up to Fluffy and wait for it to throw itself at your spear.

So the introduction of the spear might actually severely undercut an important part of what creates the emotional rush of the game, without adding much that can't already be accomplished otherwise.

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17 minutes ago, TWM said:

What would be the result? Well, those encounters might still be tense, but depending on the efficacy of the spear, they might get pretty lame pretty fast as well. 'Oh, wait. There's another obnoxious wolf. Let me get out my spear. Shoo! Shoo!' (wolf gets stung, whimpers off). So that sense of being in actual danger, and the permanent sense of dread would be off the table pretty fast once you'd obtain that spear. Imagine walking into the Dam: you could just walk up to Fluffy and wait for it to throw itself at your spear.

Bingo.. this is what led me to change my mind about having a spear.. it would make things too easy.

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10 hours ago, Boston123 said:

That completely defeats the "purpose" of a spear.

Instead, the devs should fix the asinine + imbecilic animal attack mechanics.

If having one of the simplest weapons available to man "breaks the animal AI"...... beef up the animal AI? Instead of derp-charging you, like ...... well, like zombies (I always laugh whenever I read the 'no zombies" line on the store page), have them actually behave like intelligent animals with self-preservation instincts. Have them use pack-tactics, hit-and-run, etc. Getting attacked by wolves should be an "OH GOD NO" moment, not an "-eyeroll- not again!" moment.

Just throwing that out there.

This is key and was "once" in the roadmap. I don't know how that document is considered now since the devs stopped using it but let's hope...

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Spears should be easy to make ( every culture used them in the past), maybe with just a sapling and some scrap metal and agut to fix all that.
To balance it should be a very fragile weapon (just  for one or two use) : it's just a piece of wood after all...

You could  throw them like a medium range weapon, keep wolf at distance (with lot of luck ! ) but when it charge you, the spear ahave a hight possibility of breaking .

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1 hour ago, Frozen guy said:

Spears should be easy to make ( every culture used them in the past), maybe with just a sapling and some scrap metal and agut to fix all that.
To balance it should be a very fragile weapon (just  for one or two use) : it's just a piece of wood after all...

You could  throw them like a medium range weapon, keep wolf at distance (with lot of luck ! ) but when it charge you, the spear ahave a hight possibility of breaking .

That's what I was thinking, but people are pretty against the idea of a spear.

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Whether just a limb that has been sharpened or a more refined spear, I agree that this would be one of the first priorities in survival. However, making the bow superior would retain Interloper's necessity to the forge (while kind of an odd mechanic) and thusly challenge and replayability.

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18 hours ago, JAFO said:

Bingo.. this is what led me to change my mind about having a spear.. it would make things too easy.

Yeah, considering narrow hallways of the dam, it would be likely, with Fluffy's already glitchy AI, to end up having Fluffy impaled on your spear without you doing anything.

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