Docterrok

Why Spears NEED to be in this game.

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Before I start, I understand full well I am beating a dead horse. But we have never gotten official responses about the spear. I believe that spears not only should be in this game, but NEED to be in this game, spears would add a layer of balance that is not seen in the game. One example of balance is , would you rather use the maple sapling on a bow or a spear, would you rather rely on close quarters combat/ throwing, or keeping your distance? The addition of a spear would add yet another important survival decision in this lovely game. Thoughts?

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Here's what I was thinking. (Sorry, I don't use blender often!)

Screen Shot 2017-05-09 at 2.36.14 PM.png

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Coming from someone that has wilderness survival training, a spear would be probably the first thing I make in any survival situation. If it wasn't the first, it would be the second or third.

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4 hours ago, Docterrok said:

One example of balance is , would you rather use the maple sapling on a bow or a spear, would you rather rely on close quarters combat/ throwing, or keeping your distance?

First you would have to determine which shortcoming - in terms of gameplay and balance - the introduction of the spear would adress. I'm guessing it would counteract the overabundance of wolves on Stalker, and on Interloper it would offer yet another line of defense when encountering a wolf.

Although one might wonder what advantage the spear offers over say, a flare or torch, other than psychological: having an offensive tool with which you can hurt wolves and send them whimpering off would embolden the player. Speaking for myself at least, I feel vulnerable even with a torch.

Secondly, you'd have to determine how the spear would function in wolf melee (which is where it'll find it's primary use; the spear wouldn't do much against an raging bear).

So... will it offer a guarantee of warding off wolves? That would throw the game completely off-balance, since it would render the threat of the wolves nil. And if not, how would one envision the game mechanics to work? Is that going to be a matter of poking at the right moment and risk getting jumped when you don't get it right?

So many factors to consider.

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43 minutes ago, TWM said:

First you would have to determine which shortcoming - in terms of gameplay and balance - the introduction of the spear would adress. I'm guessing it would counteract the overabundance of wolves on Stalker, and on Interloper it would offer yet another line of defense when encountering a wolf.

Although one might wonder what advantage the spear offers over say, a flare or torch, other than psychological: having an offensive tool with which you can hurt wolves and send them whimpering off would embolden the player. Speaking for myself at least, I feel vulnerable even with a torch.

Secondly, you'd have to determine how the spear would function in wolf melee (which is where it'll find it's primary use; the spear wouldn't do much against an raging bear).

So... will it offer a guarantee of warding off wolves? That would throw the game completely off-balance, since it would render the threat of the wolves nil. And if not, how would one envision the game mechanics to work? Is that going to be a matter of poking at the right moment and risk getting jumped when you don't get it right?

So many factors to consider.

That's true, for balancing, maybe it has a 50/50 chance of sending the wolf whimpering off when equipt.

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If you notice in the next update they said we will have the choice of different tools/weapons during the animation struggle. I'm not sure I get what spear would add, if you want them for a true melee kind of fight this is simply not that kind of game, melee has a complete differente scope. I like it but I don't see how it could be implemented.

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8 hours ago, togg said:

If you notice in the next update they said we will have the choice of different tools/weapons during the animation struggle. I'm not sure I get what spear would add, if you want them for a true melee kind of fight this is simply not that kind of game, melee has a complete differente scope. I like it but I don't see how it could be implemented.

Possibly in a fashion that implements a "First line of defense" system, theres the first struggle, it does no damage to you, but you are keeping the wolf away from your body with the spear, this will be a very difficult and fast struggle, then the struggle we have comes second if the first wasn't successful.

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21 hours ago, Boston123 said:

Coming from someone that has wilderness survival training, a spear would be probably the first thing I make in any survival situation. If it wasn't the first, it would be the second or third.

You make a good point, defense against danger is very important for survival.

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3 hours ago, Docterrok said:

Possibly in a fashion that implements a "First line of defense" system, theres the first struggle, it does no damage to you, but you are keeping the wolf away from your body with the spear, this will be a very difficult and fast struggle, then the struggle we have comes second if the first wasn't successful.

mmm, interesting that you thought about it this way. Basically a double animation. But why? The wolves scaring/fighting tactics is one of the things that is more developed in the game already. There're so many options. Why do you feel the need of another line of defense?
Another thing is that a very difficult and fast struggle doesn't sit well with the current general cerebral feeling that permeate the whole game. Even the struggle animation was semplified. Everything is more about choices than mouse/pad skills.

 

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1 hour ago, togg said:

mmm, interesting that you thought about it this way. Basically a double animation. But why? The wolves scaring/fighting tactics is one of the things that is more developed in the game already. There're so many options. Why do you feel the need of another line of defense?
Another thing is that a very difficult and fast struggle doesn't sit well with the current general cerebral feeling that permeate the whole game. Even the struggle animation was semplified. Everything is more about choices than mouse/pad skills.

 

True, but that's why spears can be made by choice.

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I'VE GOT THE SOLUTION!

First, the wolf approaches, if your spear is not equipped as it attacks, you simply go into initial struggle right then and there. But if it IS equipped at the time it pounces, the following thing will happen. 

It bites at your legs, and you jab/pry it off with spear, at this moment, the struggle will last a long time, about double the time of a normal one, if that is successful, you go into the secondary stage of battle, you get knocked to the ground and you must move your mouse side to side, similar to struggles in outlast. Then, finally, you have a 50/50 chance of jabbing it with your spear or it knocking it out of your hand and attacking you, the first will do no damage, the second is what we have. A second option is spear throwing for defense, thoughts?

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21 hours ago, togg said:

There're so many options. Why do you feel the need of another line of defense?

I totally disagree. I've had several runs on Interloper where I have not even been able to harvest guts for decoys, even several days in...let alone craft a bow to hunt/defend myself. If you play anything easier than Interloper, than I can maybe see your point. That being said, I think the advantages of a spear are in its rugged simplicity and that it is:

 

-An instant weapon to defend yourself with. You would not necessarily need to forge a metal tip, you could just sharpen a sapling until its ready to stab. Maybe could be customized later to tie a knife to it or even add a scrap metal (forged?) tip

 

-Instead of this being a projectile weapon, I would prefer to have it purely for self defense. Maybe it could just make a simple jabbing motion to keep back wolves. As you get more advanced with it, you could throw it

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I wholeheartedly support the implementation of spears. all you would need is a large stick, some scrap metal, and a maybe some guts or cloth to tie it all together.

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We've actually gotten many official responses from the team regarding this.  Once you come up with a game situation that is made more challenging or interesting from the inclusion of spears, they may move forward.  So far, all it seems to be is means to obliterate one of the key challenges (wildlife as a threat).  

If its not good for gameplay its not good for the game. (reality be damned)

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This one is tought. On one hand, I have to agree that it feels a bit forced not to be able to craft one, as its indeed quite easy to get youself one from a good sappling. Its possibly the most common defensive weapon across all cultures, which ilustrates how "natural" is for a human to weild a spear. 

On the other... I agree with @selfless here. The spear would render wolves quite harmless. I can't think of how it would make the game more interesting. It would only make it easier. 

Therefore I think I'm ultimatelly against the addition of the spear in the game. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mortan1234 said:

I wholeheartedly support the implementation of spears. all you would need is a large stick, some scrap metal, and a maybe some guts or cloth to tie it all together.

Thats what I tried to show with my model on Blender.

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42 minutes ago, Ohbal said:

This one is tought. On one hand, I have to agree that it feels a bit forced not to be able to craft one, as its indeed quite easy to get youself one from a good sappling. Its possibly the most common defensive weapon across all cultures, which ilustrates how "natural" is for a human to weild a spear. 

On the other... I agree with @selfless here. The spear would render wolves quite harmless. I can't think of how it would make the game more interesting. It would only make it easier. 

Therefore I think I'm ultimatelly against the addition of the spear in the game. 

 

 

Not if my idea is implemented.

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2 hours ago, Docterrok said:

I'VE GOT THE SOLUTION!

First, the wolf approaches, if your spear is not equipped as it attacks, you simply go into initial struggle right then and there. But if it IS equipped at the time it pounces, the following thing will happen. 

It bites at your legs, and you jab/pry it off with spear, at this moment, the struggle will last a long time, about double the time of a normal one, if that is successful, you go into the secondary stage of battle, you get knocked to the ground and you must move your mouse side to side, similar to struggles in outlast. Then, finally, you have a 50/50 chance of jabbing it with your spear or it knocking it out of your hand and attacking you, the first will do no damage, the second is what we have. A second option is spear throwing for defense, thoughts?

You mean this one? Not really in favour either. I'll tell you why:

Its hard to find a reason not to keep the spear equipped at all times (that isn't too forced, like making it weight 10kg). If I have it... why wouldn't I be holding it? What other items in my inventory would be preferred to have at hand while exploring? Why would I carry the 5kg riffle? Thing is, I think 99% of the times, all of us would have the spear equipped at all times. 

You are proposing to add yet another recurrent animation that would happen everytime a wolf attacks you if you are holding the spear, which would happen most of the time (see point above). Around the 20th time (give or take) you have seen the wolf bite your leg, you start feeling its weight. If everything goes right, you get into ANOTHER animation that makes you swing your mouse / stick all the way around. If things go wrong, you go to current struggle. Possibly 20 to 30 secconds of animation that you would see over and over and over. This would all feel very repetitive in the end.

The good thing about current struggles is that they are quite quick and simple. I think the current design aims to promote avoiding confrontation rather than having an easy way to defend yourself.

Edited by Ohbal
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2 minutes ago, Ohbal said:

You mean this one? Not really in favour either. I'll tell you why:

Its hard to find a reason not to keep the spear equipped at all times (that isn't too forced, like making it weight 10kg). If I have it... why wouldn't I be holding it? What other items in my inventory would be preferred to have at hand while exploring? Why would I carry the 5kg riffle? Thing is, I think 99% of the times, all of us would have the spear equipped at all times. 

You are proposing to add yet another recurrent animation that would happen everytime a wolf attacks you if you are holding the spear, which would happen most of the time (see point about). Around the 20th time (give or take) you have seen the wolf bite your leg, you start feeling its weight. If everything goes right, you get into ANOTHER animation that makes you swing your mouse / stick all the way around. If things go wrong, you go to current struggle. Possibly 20 to 30 secconds of animation that you would see over and over and over. This would all feel very repetitive in the end.

The good thing about current struggles is that they are quite quick and simple. I think the current design aims to promote avoiding confrontation rather than having an easy way to defend yourself.

Good point, but man, I want spears!

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2 minutes ago, Docterrok said:

Good point, but man, I want spears!

Yeah! I can tell! :D:D 

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1 minute ago, Ohbal said:

Yeah! I can tell! :D:D 

Ok, I made a poll, lets see how it goes.

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you have two problems with your wish, that is just one:
spear is useless.

deer and rabbits get scare too easy, using a spear against them can end up in a big waste of time.
wolves don't scare, and now you have to fight them with the spear, and that get trick.

so.... i would like spears to, but first we need to find a use for them.

Edited by King.Of.Print
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5 hours ago, Docterrok said:

Not if my idea is implemented.

I disagree.. having the spear still only makes fending off wolves easier than it was before, even if not every time.

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13 hours ago, michael_martin said:

I totally disagree. I've had several runs on Interloper where I have not even been able to harvest guts for decoys, even several days in...let alone craft a bow to hunt/defend myself. If you play anything easier than Interloper, than I can maybe see your point. That being said, I think the advantages of a spear are in its rugged simplicity and that it is:

 

-An instant weapon to defend yourself with. You would not necessarily need to forge a metal tip, you could just sharpen a sapling until its ready to stab. Maybe could be customized later to tie a knife to it or even add a scrap metal (forged?) tip

 

-Instead of this being a projectile weapon, I would prefer to have it purely for self defense. Maybe it could just make a simple jabbing motion to keep back wolves. As you get more advanced with it, you could throw it

so you basically want to make the first days of interloper, the one that are more challenging and fun, easier! We already have some objects that can keep wolves at bay and are consumable or need some kind of thought (flares, torches, decoy). And they have nice mechanics built around them.

The fact that in the game you cannot do everything is a good thing.

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16 hours ago, selfless said:

So far, all it seems to be is means to obliterate one of the key challenges (wildlife as a threat).  

Claim as false as they come. Complete exaggeration of how spears would work, even in best case scenario.

Quote

If its not good for gameplay its not good for the game. (reality be damned)

True. Except first it must be determined and proven that its not good for the game. Instead of providing completely unfounded conjectures.

16 hours ago, Ohbal said:

On the other... I agree with @selfless here. The spear would render wolves quite harmless. I can't think of how it would make the game more interesting. It would only make it easier. 

What a load of bullshit. How exactly spear would render wolves harmless ? We are talking about poorly balanced stick with a piece of torn metal on top of it, wielded by person who have no idea what he is doing, and using it against fast smart and small target.

By this same idiotic logic, both bow and especially rifle are balance-breaking.

13 hours ago, King.Of.Print said:

you have two problems with your wish, that is just one:
spear is useless.

deer and rabbits get scare too easy, using a spear against them can end up in a big waste of time.
wolves don't scare, and now you have to fight them with the spear, and that get trick.

so.... i would like spears to, but first we need to find a use for them.

You essentially said nothing. With proper implementation spear can be both balanced and useful tool.

3 hours ago, togg said:

The fact that in the game you cannot do everything is a good thing.

The fact that player cant do most basic and obvious things in a game that simulates reality is stupidest thing possible. And at the same time we have snow shelters and parasites that make no sense at all.

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