A civilized discussion about the news...


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I seriously made some deer goulash last Sunday and froze it in order to eat it today.  Well, now it needs to stay in the freezer until the end of May/early June I guess.^^

I've noticed that things have gotten heated, so I want to discuss everything that you guys like/dislike about this decision, the reason I'm posting it here is because I don't want any mud slinging, I

I think it's sensible to keep the Wintermute maps separate to start with, anyway. That way people can't get used to them beforehand and spoil the story experience. I know people could and probably wil

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4 minutes ago, Scyzara said:

I seriously made some deer goulash last Sunday and froze it in order to eat it today. :D

Well, now it needs to stay in the freezer until the end of May/early June I guess.^^

/envy    sounds so good!

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Sorry to Debbie Downer this but, if I'm being honest, I think the news is just a little underwhelming, in general.  It sounds as though sandbox is being called "survival mode," but I'm not sure if the mode has changed all that much outside of the name.  New maps will definitely be cool, if that's something that happens (but I guess I don't know whether it will be or not.)

From the dev's diary, they listed a number of things that are for sure happening:

Complete Save System Overhaul - Nothing compelling about this to me.  It only means that I need to start a new sandbox, which I intended to do, anyhow.
Completely New UI - I like this ok.  I think it still looks pretty clean and I liked the radial menu when they first implemented it.  This will probably be a nice improvement, generally.
Cartography Gameplay - I'm personally ambivalent about this but it is a nice thing for folks who will like it and use it.  Maybe I'll be more interested in this when the time comes.
Throwing Stones - Decent improvement but hard to say how it will function, at this point.  If it's just used in the early game for killing rabbits, I'm not super-compelled by it.  If it gives you a decent defense against wolves, I'll be more interested in it.  I'd still rather see spears but this is something, I guess.
Throwing Flares & Torches - I've been trying to figure out if I've been around long enough to remember when this was in before.  I think I have been.  I don't mind the brandishing mechanic, as-is, so I don't know if this change is compelling to me or not.
Carcass Quartering - I like this, as well.  This is a nice change.  But, again, it's hard to know how excited to be without knowing how it will function.  Is this only something for large animals, like deer or bear?  Can I simply pick up rabbit corpses whole and bring them inside to skin and clean?  So it might be nice but might also be very situational.
Struggle Weapon Selection - I'm ambivalent about this one, too.  In reading the dev diary, I don't know that I understand why this was a focus.  Were folks asking for this?  I've given literally zero thought to this game mechanic, personally, in the almost two years I've been playing this game.
Improved First-Person Presence - I'm also pretty ambivalent about this.  My personal gaming experience hasn't changed at all since they first started implementing this with flares, lanterns, etc.  I don't experience the change in immersion it has always been designed to achieve.  In fact, I've never liked how the "improved" first person presence affected picking up or putting down lanterns, myself, and prefer the original way.  But some folks feel the immersion change I don't, so I don't dislike it, either.
Tons of New Art - This is great.  Lots of folks are gushing about the video.  Quite a bit of footage in that video is stuff we've seen, already, so I didn't get as giddy about the video as others-- but some of the new interiors that we haven't seen before were great-looking, I thought.
New Graphics Settings - Also a good thing.  I'm hopeful for multi-monitor support but I'm not holding my breath on that one.  Multi-monitor resolutions would be absolutely AMAZING.
Tons of Bug Fixes and Optimization - Always good, obviously.

There were and are a LOT more interesting and compelling things on the last roadmap update that aren't making it into the game-- yet, if I'm being hopeful-- i.e., more new wildlife (moose, cougar, etc.), expanded wildlife interactions (wolves vs bears, for example), the wellbeing system (which seems interesting even if I have no idea what it means), primitive firemaking, *improved sprains(!)*, improved cooking, improved fishing, safehouse customization (being able to fix up the Mountaineer's Hut would be great.  It's chilly in there!), etc.  It would have been nice to have some of those (more of those?) make it in.  There are also community suggestions that are not on the roadmap that I would have been delighted to see in game, like moveable storage containers and the aforementioned spear.  As I've said, the list above, to me, just isn't super awesome.  I'm not sure what I expected, specifically, but I must have expected more, I guess.  There also could be cool stuff that they haven't highlighted coming in the update, too, I suppose, but this list doesn't make me giddy, really.

Story mode will be great.  I've always looked forward to that.  And with their focus being there, primarily, it makes sense that story mode will be the real draw to the game at launch.  I will play and enjoy story mode a lot, I'm sure.  Maybe that, alone, is compelling enough?

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I'm not sure about the title of this, after all civilisation is built on arguments and clash of opinion (leaving aside the ubiquitous bloodshed). "A relaxed discussion", "Cozy fireside chat", ah well too late. Sorry to hear about Scyzaras' stew and the people who took a day off work for.. Ahem.

Anyway, the news we have on the update does seem a little underwhelming to me after what we've been through (giggles). I'm concerned about the interface change and sad to see my "2 rooms of Quonset Garage carpeted with Bear bed rolls" save down the lavatory. The rest seems ok to me but it isn't the stuff that had my mouth watering on the roadmap. Moose, above all. Improved cooking - I was hoping for indoor and outdoor, perhaps crafting a skillet so deer could be cooked on the spot whilst gathering sticks. Other animals. Never saw the point of a revolver or axe but still..

At the end of the day though, I don't care. Some of the updates so far took awhile to grow on me but they did. I think the most important thing might be the PS4 news - more cash for HL = more content for us, whenever.

Sequels? "BART, WHERE'S MY WALLET??" 

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I want to discuss the latest update, but I'm worried about spoilers, so I didn't watch the trailer and I haven't read most of the posts.  However, I'm intrigued by cartography.  That sounds like a lot of fun if we can make our own maps.  I just don't want it to be a crummy automap.  I like the fact that I have to use landmarks and whatnot to find my way.  In my most recent run, I finally got a quick route back and forth between the ranger station and the trapper's cabin.  Even then, it's pretty easy to get turned around and I hope the game keeps that going.  In my experience, once you get off a mountain trail, it's extremely easy to lose your bearings.  I've done that before getting close to dark and had to stop myself from rushing around in a hurry, take stock of the situation, and work out a plan that got me back to where I recognized my surroundings.  On the other hand, making it a skill would be awesome.  That way, you could hone your abilities and use it easier.

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33 minutes ago, Cantousent said:

I want to discuss the latest update, but I'm worried about spoilers, so I didn't watch the trailer and I haven't read most of the posts.  However, I'm intrigued by cartography.  That sounds like a lot of fun if we can make our own maps.  I just don't want it to be a crummy automap.  I like the fact that I have to use landmarks and whatnot to find my way.  In my most recent run, I finally got a quick route back and forth between the ranger station and the trapper's cabin.  Even then, it's pretty easy to get turned around and I hope the game keeps that going.  In my experience, once you get off a mountain trail, it's extremely easy to lose your bearings.  I've done that before getting close to dark and had to stop myself from rushing around in a hurry, take stock of the situation, and work out a plan that got me back to where I recognized my surroundings.  On the other hand, making it a skill would be awesome.  That way, you could hone your abilities and use it easier.

According to both the video and description in the post you will use charcoal from a fire and then be able to draw maps. I THINK that the accuracy of your maps seems to be based on how often you stop to update your map as you travel. So the more you stop to update your map the more accurate it will be. This will be one of the first things I test when the test track opens.

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I'll admit that I was disappointed that the moose didn't make it into this update. Hinterland released a teaser of the moose right after the last update and said that the moose had just barely not made it into that update. Based on that, I had really expected the moose would make it into this one. I guess it's possible, however unlikely, that Hinterland kept the moose as a surprise but after yesterday's events I'm trying extra hard to manage my own expectations. ;) That said, here are my thoughts about the things confirmed for the next update:

Throwing stones: Long term, I think I'd still use snares for rabbits, but for the early game it might be a good way to quickly get access to some guts for the first snares. The more important use may be for dealing with wolves, since it'd provide one alternative that relies on renewable resources. I'm interested to see how this will work.

Struggle weapon selection: It's funny, because I actually suggested back in August 2015 that players be able to choose their struggle weapon. My suggestion relied on each weapon having pros and cons. I'll admit that I'd like to think that my feedback was considered for this change. :) I doubt that Hinterland would go through the trouble of letting players select a weapon for struggles unless each weapon had advantages and disadvantages to weigh and consider. I'm an interloper player, so wolf attacks are devastating to me and I really try to avoid them entirely. However, perhaps this mechanic will make the struggles a little more interesting.

Carcass quartering: I wonder what the drawbacks will be to quartering. I find it's not a big deal to just start a fire by a carcass when I harvest, so if there are major drawbacks to quartering (e.g., loss of substantial amount of meat to harvest) then I may just stick with my current strategy. I'm speculating, though, so I'll wait and see when the test branch comes out.

Throwing flares/torches: I will agree with Hinterland that brandishing probably isn't working as intended. I never use it because brandishing oftentimes just provokes the wolf into attacking. It's safer to just drop a decoy or light a flare/torch and walk away while trying to break the wolf's line of sight. I'm unsure about throwing flares/torches because unless it is guaranteed to cause the wolf to flee, throwing the torch/flare will mean that you have nothing to make the wolf hesitate attacking and will be virtually the same problem as with brandishing currently. I guess I'll have to test it and see.

Cartography Gameplay: Although this inspires the name for the next update, I have to admit this is probably the least interesting to me of all the new mechanics. I already know maps like Mystery Lake, Coastal Highway and Pleasant Valley so I don't really need a map. For Timberwolf Mountain and Forlorn Muskeg, a map might be useful, but a big part of the fun for me is learning the maps by pure exploration. That said, I do appreciate that Hinterland kept players like me in mind and made cartography an opt-in feature.

New UI: I know some others don't like the new UI based on the previews that Hinterland has released so far. From what I've seen, I actually think the new UI looks pretty good, although I will, of course, reserve judgment until after I've gotten to try it out during the test branch. Like someone else also mentioned, I'm not really sure how eating food will work for the radial menu since there are so many different types of food and each has its own condition to also consider. It will be interesting to see how Hinterland handled this. Being able to drink water from the radial menu will certainly be a welcome change, though.

Cosmetic Changes: Improved first person presence and graphics are nice. I generally am more excited about new gameplay mechanics, but it's good to see progress being made on the game's visuals too.

Edited by ridankrad
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39 minutes ago, ridankrad said:

Struggle weapon selection: It's funny, because I actually suggested back in August 2015 that players be able to choose their struggle weapon. My suggestion relied on each weapon having pros and cons. I'll admit that I'd like to think that my feedback was considered for this change. :) I doubt that Hinterland would go through the trouble of letting players select a weapon for struggles unless each weapon had advantages and disadvantages to weigh and consider. I'm an interloper player, so wolf attacks are devastating to me and I really try to avoid them entirely. However, perhaps this mechanic will make the struggles a little more interesting.

Carcass quartering: I wonder what the drawbacks will be to quartering. I find it's not a big deal to just start a fire by a carcass when I harvest, so if there are major drawbacks to quartering (e.g., loss of substantial amount of meat to harvest) then I may just stick with my current strategy. I'm speculating, though, so I'll wait and see when the test branch comes out.

 

Doesn't the game pick the "best" weapon for you in a struggle now, already?  Isn't that something that's currently baked in?  EDIT: I think I misread your post when I responded.  If weapons had pros and cons, like you suggest, then the choosing of weapons makes sense to me.  Then the "best" weapon wouldn't be chosen-- you would decide, instead, what is the "best."

From what the mentioned in the dev diary, it looks like the biggest drawback to quartering is that it will attract wildlife to you, all while doing the quartering, while leaving the part you're not carrying with you, and by carrying the part with you.  So it sounds to me like the drawback is that it will be a wolf lightning rod.  I'm not 100% sure what the benefit will actually be, in that case.  When I shoot a bear, I take as much meat as I can carry, I bring it to my hunting base, I drop it off, I go back for more meat, I drop it off, I go back and skin the bear and take the hide, and I'm done, basically all without increasing the noticibility of wolves too much.  So I don't know that I understand quite how this improves upon that, just yet.  What I thought the community always asked for most was the ability to carry SMALL GAME out of the field.  Instead of sitting in a snow storm cutting up a rabbit or two, the question has always been asked why we can't bring those inside to clean.  This mechanism doesn't seem to deal with that, from what I can tell.  It seems to imply that it only works with big game, which I don't know if people had a problem with, in the first place.

While I'm thinking about carrying and cleaning small game, I also wish we could make rabbit skin hats; another fantastic community suggestion that isn't on the list, it seems.

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15 minutes ago, tnbp said:

Doesn't the game pick the "best" weapon for you in a struggle now, already?  Isn't that something that's currently baked in? 

That hasn't appeared to be the case from the tests I have run. 

As far as I know, the hatchet has always been the best, but if you also have a knife on-hand it will be used instead.

 

Edited by Timber Wolf
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19 minutes ago, tnbp said:

Doesn't the game pick the "best" weapon for you in a struggle now, already?  Isn't that something that's currently baked in?

From what the mentioned in the dev diary, it looks like the biggest drawback to quartering is that it will attract wildlife to you, all while doing the quartering, while leaving the part you're not carrying with you, and by carrying the part with you.  So it sounds to me like the drawback is that it will be a wolf lightning rod.  I'm not 100% sure what the benefit will actually be, in that case.  When I shoot a bear, I take as much meat as I can carry, I bring it to my hunting base, I drop it off, I go back for more meat, I drop it off, I go back and skin the bear and take the hide, and I'm done, basically all without increasing the noticibility of wolves too much.  So I don't know that I understand quite how this improves upon that, just yet.  What I thought the community always asked for most was the ability to carry SMALL GAME out of the field.  Instead of sitting in a snow storm cutting up a rabbit or two, the question has always been asked why we can't bring those inside to clean.  This mechanism doesn't seem to deal with that, from what I can tell.  It seems to imply that it only works with big game, which I don't know if people had a problem with, in the first place.

While I'm thinking about carrying and cleaning small game, I also wish we could make rabbit skin hats; another fantastic community suggestion that isn't on the list, it seems.

Yes and no. The game does currently choose the struggle weapon automatically, but it's debatable if it chooses the "best weapon". @Timber Wolf ran a series of tests a couple months ago and found that the hatchet actually results in the least condition loss to the player on average, so arguably the hatchet is the best weapon for wolf struggles. However, the game will automatically choose the knife instead of the hatchet if both are in the player's inventory.

However, based on the update notes, I think that all this may change. Hinterland has always emphasized that it wants players to make meaningful choices. If the player can choose the struggle weapon, then each choice should have pros and cons. If there is one clear "best weapon" then it becomes a false choice. Having said this, I'm not sure exactly what these pros and cons might be. Taking the least amount of condition loss seems like a really important stat for a weapon and would make it an obvious choice. But perhaps another weapon might reduce the amount of damage to clothing. And perhaps another (knife perhaps) might have a chance to kill the wolf during the struggle instead of causing it to run off. It's fun to speculate, but only time will tell for certain.

I agree with you about the quartering. I can easily imagine myself sticking to my current strategy. I think I saw something from Hinterland that indicated the player would be able to pick up the rabbits entirely, however, and harvest them elsewhere. If so, I will definitely do that.

EDIT: Oh you beat me to the punch, @Timber Wolf :) 

Edited by ridankrad
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4 minutes ago, ridankrad said:

Yes and no. The game does currently choose the struggle weapon automatically, but it's debatable if it chooses the "best weapon". @Timber Wolf ran a series of tests a couple months ago and found that the hatchet actually results in the least condition loss to the player on average, so arguably the hatchet is the best weapon for wolf struggles. However, the game will automatically choose the knife instead of the hatchet if both are in the player's inventory.

However, based on the update notes, I think that all this may change. Hinterland has always emphasized that it wants players to make meaningful choices. If the player can choose the struggle weapon, then each choice should have pros and cons. If there is one clear "best weapon" then it becomes a false choice. Having said this, I'm not sure exactly what these pros and cons might be. Taking the least amount of condition loss seems like a really important stat for a weapon and would make it an obvious choice. But perhaps another weapon might reduce the amount of damage to clothing. And perhaps another (knife perhaps) might have a chance to kill the wolf during the struggle instead of causing it to run off. It's fun to speculate, but only time will tell for certain.

I agree with you about the quartering. I can easily imagine myself sticking to my current strategy. I think I saw something from Hinterland that indicated the player would be able to pick up the rabbits entirely, however, and harvest them elsewhere. If so, I will definitely do that.

If that's, indeed, how the weapon choosing works, then I find it a lot more interesting than I did a few hours ago. :P

Do you recall where you saw the indication that we'd be able to pick up rabbit (or certain-sized) carcasses?  I don't remember anything in the dev diary.  That would for sure be useful.  EDIT: I just went to re-read the part of the diary that talks about quartering.  It doesn't mention carrying smaller animals-- but it does state, outright, that quartering results in less efficiency, which I think implies that you'll lose something in the exchange.  Maybe the old way ends up just being better, though taking a bit longer (and who knows if it will actually even take longer because you'll still have to spend some time and calories doing the actual quartering.)

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8 minutes ago, ridankrad said:

@Timber Wolf ran a series of tests a couple months ago and found that the hatchet actually results in the least condition loss to the player on average, so arguably the hatchet is the best weapon for wolf struggles.

I'm hoping this has changed.  I guess I'll have some more tests to run when the test branch opens up. ;)

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1 minute ago, Timber Wolf said:

There is this picture in the dev diary

Capture.thumb.JPG.b2c306c239774d0a3f2a0819b14ac295.JPG

Yes, but we don't know what that means.  That picture is next to the entry about throwing stones.  It even says, "Stun a rabbit, then see if you have the heart to finish it off."  That's a pic of Will deciding whether or not to snap that rabbit's neck...  Hard for me to look at that pic and make the leap to being able to carry and clean rabbit carcasses indoors, personally.

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7 minutes ago, tnbp said:

If that's, indeed, how the weapon choosing works, then I find it a lot more interesting than I did a few hours ago. :P

Do you recall where you saw the indication that we'd be able to pick up rabbit (or certain-sized) carcasses?  I don't remember anything in the dev diary.  That would for sure be useful.  EDIT: I just went to re-read the part of the diary that talks about quartering.  It doesn't mention carrying smaller animals-- but it does state, outright, that quartering results in less efficiency, which I think implies that you'll lose something in the exchange.  Maybe the old way ends up just being better, though taking a bit longer (and who knows if it will actually even take longer because you'll still have to spend some time and calories doing the actual quartering.)

Found it! I knew I'd read something official somewhere. It was on the Steam forums. Here's a direct link to the post: http://steamcommunity.com/app/305620/discussions/0/1326718197208830253/#c1326718197208851227

And here's the quote:

Quote

Yes, you'll be able to pick up Rabbits vs. having to Harvest them on the spot. And the new Carcass Harvesting system will give you some new options for Wolves, Stags, and Bears as well.

 

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