I made a mapping program for TLD, tracks you like GPS showing Whiteberry's maps


Sofox

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If you'd like to track your location on TLD, I've created a mapping program that does just that: https://bitbucket.org/Sofox/wakemapper

You run it alongside your game, and it will display your current location on a Whiteberry map. As you move, the marker showing your current position will move with it.

The program only covers outside maps, so won't help you in caves or inside the hydroelectric dam. In fact, if you start the game indoors you may have to go outside before the program updates.

Let me know what you think.

WakeMapperScreenshot5.jpg

Edited by Sofox
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Glad there seems to be a positive response.

I should have been more clear about the platform: Currently it only runs on Windows. I could theoretically make a Linux version, and possibly a Mac if I could get my hands on such a computer. However it's source code (as well as the binary program) are available here if anyone wants to look into it in more: detail: https://bitbucket.org/Sofox/wakemapper (forgot to link it above, fixed now)

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Super cool program! Definitely going to give it a try when I fire up my next sandbox this weekend.

I've been using those maps (I have some printed paper versions) for a few weeks and really appreciate them. I was already very familiar with ML and CH, so I really just use them to make sure I don't forget to check certain spots, remember where the birch saplings are etc. They really are a fantastic tool.

Would it be possible to use this program to add contour lines to the map? ;)

Edit: in other words, could you also list the z-coordinate at the bottom? Maybe as an option? Could I export a log of coordinates I've visited?

Edited by Crocket
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 While I applaud the endeavor and execution, I can't help but scratch my head at the usage. It seems to me that much of the appeal of the game is the navigation; be it the lack of it in the beginning or the expertise involved after learning an area, this really seems to be akin to - I dare say - a cheat.

 Please don't misunderstand me: use it if you like and as I said, it is certainly an accomplishment in itself, but I'm not sure that it agrees with the developer intention of the game.

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1 hour ago, Carbon said:

 While I applaud the endeavor and execution, I can't help but scratch my head at the usage. It seems to me that much of the appeal of the game is the navigation; be it the lack of it in the beginning or the expertise involved after learning an area, this really seems to be akin to - I dare say - a cheat.

 Please don't misunderstand me: use it if you like and as I said, it is certainly an accomplishment in itself, but I'm not sure that it agrees with the developer intention of the game.

Not going to disagree with @Carbon. It is very cool program and idea. However, @Carbon, isn't reloading a saved game or quitting before you die (and it saves) pretty much the same thing? ...  "akin to - I dare say - a cheat?"  :-) many players do that. Bottom line, as has been said ad-nausium in tons of threads, tis your game, you bought it, play it the way you wish to enjoy it. :)

@Sofox really nice idea. You might consider a feature that allows a player to plant a virtual flag on the map or marker, so they can mark places for reference?  They can simply pretend it is their way of "writing their own map"

 

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4 hours ago, AZHockeyNut said:

Not going to disagree with @Carbon. It is very cool program and idea. However, @Carbon, isn't reloading a saved game or quitting before you die (and it saves) pretty much the same thing? ...  "akin to - I dare say - a cheat?"  :-) many players do that. Bottom line, as has been said ad-nausium in tons of threads, tis your game, you bought it, play it the way you wish to enjoy it. :)

@Sofox really nice idea. You might consider a feature that allows a player to plant a virtual flag on the map or marker, so they can mark places for reference?  They can simply pretend it is their way of "writing their own map"

 

Yes, as we've pointed out once or twice in the past, even though this program doesn't strictly alter game files, it does undermine -- in a way -- one of the core elements of the game: Exploration. Of course many players are using community maps already, or making there own, but this integration pushes the concept a bit further. We'd like to think players want to leave room to be surprised!

 

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I am with Patrick on this one.

For the survival aspect it is key to know where to go and where to find specific items. The actual game is about finding out these things. Both aspects are removed by using a map.

The problem is, that people obviously want to know - again, that's the main element of the game - and so there is by nature a demand for that. By doing it in public, you deny lots of people the experience TLD has to offer.

Or let me put it like that: If you have played hundreds of hours TLD using this, you actually haven't played TLD at all. Even more dangerous is, that normally people wouldn't think that it is a "cheat" to"just look at a map" and therefor it is very likely that many people will use it.

I would like to ask you to remove it completly from public.

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2 hours ago, MueckE said:

I would like to ask you to remove it completly from public.

Why? if you don't want to use it don't.

As Patrick said "it's not modifying no files in the TLD".

Therefore it can be public all day long in my view.

It is a gamers choice if they want to cheat or not or just use it in other ways, personally I would not use it if I just bought / downloaded the game. However I have played 699 hours game play. At this time of point I am waiting for a new update.(long wait) In the meantime I am going to download and try this map viewer out. Just to see what it is like :) .

I know all the maps pretty much already. There are just a couple locations where I would like to suss out a bit more, so this map mod might help me out.

Thanks @Sofax

Edited by nicko
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21 hours ago, AZHockeyNut said:

However, Carbon, isn't reloading a saved game or quitting before you die (and it saves) pretty much the same thing? ...  "akin to - I dare say - a cheat?"


 Not at all.

 I could claim that as one cannot play forever, anytime one stops playing would meet your criteria, but I know what you meant. I would still claim 'no' in your scenario however. I have in the past set out for destination X and had the weather turn for the worse, then made a bad decision which left me in dire straits. Quitting out in this case isn't a cheat or hack as it is simply following the design of the game to the letter, that being that quitting before a the game is saved surrenders progress to that point, for better - your argument and my aforementioned situation - or worse - real life demands, for example when you have to stop despite things going well. Either way this fortune falls is just the way the game functions without the aid of outside programs, within prescribed parameters. I actually believe that this is a gram of consolation offered against the great weight of 'permadeath'.

 To be clear, using additional software or enacting operations outside the normal parameters of the intended player experience - entering a 'cheat code', for example -  to aid your progress, is a cheat. True, one would only be cheating themselves with this behavior and players are indeed ultimately in control of how they wish to play, but my point was that this behavior certainly falls outside of the intended experience and seems somehow wrong to bring it here, to the developers house, as it were. They are too kind to state this explicitly, but I would not be surprised if this thread hasn't caused some consternation behind the scenes.

 

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14 hours ago, nicko said:

Therefore it can be public all day long in my view.

  While it can be seen by passersby, you're standing in Hinterland's front yard.

 I don't blame the author for being proud of their work - as I said, it is without a doubt accomplished - and also understand that they would want others to see it with these forums being a sort of ground-zero for this desire, but it could be seen as impertinent.

 I realize that I am no arbiter of content on Hinterland's forums, but I am entitled to give my respectful opinion. :)

Edited by Carbon
I mistook the quoted member as the author of the program
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This is cool, and I'm not certain I would have ever used it, but.... I did use Whiteberry's maps, which have grid based location markers on it.  So my question to people who are down on this - how at the end of the day is this really different than say using one of Whiteberry's maps and mabye doing a screenshot to see were exactly you are? Perhaps I missed it, but weren't those maps celebrated?  Even by the game designers?  Interviews and everything if I recall. :) 

Though it might be useful to find that persnicky bunker I can never find.  

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3 hours ago, Jolan said:

This is cool, and I'm not certain I would have ever used it, but.... I did use Whiteberry's maps, which have grid based location markers on it.  So my question to people who are down on this - how at the end of the day is this really different than say using one of Whiteberry's maps and mabye doing a screenshot to see were exactly you are? Perhaps I missed it, but weren't those maps celebrated?  Even by the game designers?  Interviews and everything if I recall. :) 

Though it might be useful to find that persnicky bunker I can never find.  

The maps, like this app, are awesome. I still prefer to explore on my own though ;) 

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11 hours ago, Jolan said:

So my question to people who are down on this - how at the end of the day is this really different than say using one of Whiteberry's maps and mabye doing a screenshot to see were exactly you are?

 You make a very good point but I will take it further. It may be argued that using the maps still requires some form of skilled reckoning to find out where you are and further where you want to be, but this is just rationalization. The software under discussion provides a real-time ongoing view where one need only stay the course, a certain step up from Whiteberries maps in terms of ease-of-use, but under examination, it is essentially the same; a game-breaker, a cheat and only in a technical sense not a hack.

 Location/direction markers became a 'thing' in gaming as environments got larger, objectives more numerous or, some might say, as players changed and demanded an easier or simplified experience prompting developers to add the mini-map or HUD indicators of direction and distance to objectives. The players weren't in solidarity on this and in many games, the ability to turn off what was often seen as hand-holding elements was included. Often, depending on the game, it seemed more fitting without these overlays and the experience was richer without them and I believe that this is something which the minimalist, spartan nature of TLD inherits.

 Now, we could take the rationale one step further and ask what the difference might be then of an actual marker on-screen or a mini-map down in the corner? Would this change the experience significantly? I claim it would and I also claim that this is exactly what the software under discussion does. That the map resides off-screen is of little significance and in reality it is only off-screen to save the author and the software from legal issues; while the software may not alter any files within the game, it has precisely the same effect.

 This is a grey area only to players but it is essentially game-breaking from a developer's point of view and quite disappointing, I would imagine. Let's be honest with ourselves: using Whiteberries maps is also cheating of the same nature. While the effort that went into making the maps can be applauded, as is the case here, make no mistake that their employment by players is not staying true to the intended use of the game and completely nullifies one very key aspect of playing: exploration.

 Did I use Whiteberries maps? On occasion, yes. Does this make me a hypocrite? No, because I did not claim not to have used them. The important issue here is to recognize and accept that while all manner of rationalization and compromise can be made, their use is cheating. TLD is a very tough game and yes, I cheated.

 What can Hinterland say or do in this situation? If they come out railing against the maps and this software, many will unfairly criticize them and at this point, they just don't want to engage in this type of bad PR. If they do nothing (as they currently are), accepting that this type of thing is indeed inevitable (which it is and they understand this), then silence may be misread as consent and threads like this become a reality where cheats are posted right on their forum. The only 'right' action is for this thread to be removed and the software to be posted elsewhere. Hinterland can't stop this type of thing from becoming a reality but to bring it into their house is simply wrong, in a very real sense abuses the privilege of being a member here and while it may be only one step removed from a hack, its obvious dependency on game files to function appears suspect.

 It may have every right to exist (I am not a lawyer, nor do I have a detailed understanding of what constitutes a hack) and once again I recognize and appreciate the skill and effort in creating this software, but it is in fact a cheat and shouldn't be posted here.

Edited by Carbon
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The important issue here is to recognize and accept that while all manner of rationalization and compromise can be made, their use is cheating.

Why is this a problem though? It's a singleplayer game and even the leaderboards were removed. So if you're going to cheat that's just for your own entertainment, nothing wrong with that. 

This raises some questions about the rules, from player perspective this is surely a "cheat". From technical perspective I guess that's not so clear. Editing save files is banned, extracting game files is banned, converting game audio files to .ogg is banned, using reflector to take a look at game's code is banned (I believe). I guess the argument here is that the program doesn't actually modify TLD in any way, nor does it present any "hidden" data, even though the coordinates are kinda hidden. I would still call it a "hack", as it does access the game process even if it doesn't modify the memory. Theoretically you could make a wallhack for FPS game by only reading it's memory and I suppose everyone agrees that that would be a hack. In my opinion this definitely shouldn't be removed, but the rules should be consistent. If this is allowed, is a program reading save files allowed as long as it doesn't modify any files?

Also worth noting that it's newer been a legal issue, AFAIK cheating even in online games isn't illegal unless you're trying to make money out of it. This isn't very relevant though as Hinterland has other than legal reasons for their rules.

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Whoa, okay then....

I post the program, get some nice responses, things seem to settle down, I don't check the topic for a few days, then take a look and find this...

First up, I understand everyone's perspective on this. On one hand, people should be able to do whatever they want with their own legally purchased single player games; on the other hand, this can clearly go against the developers intentions and lead to an inferior/subpar/different gameplay experience (especially since so many games already have a map, playing a game without one is a new and different challenge). I was aware of such points going in (I didn't use the program during my own playthrough), but I decided to leave it to everyone's own personal decision whether to use it or not.

I even people opposed to the program still appreciated the work that went into making it. Thank you! And thank you everyone else who appreciated and complimented me for the program. I do appreciate it.

Now, for individual comments:

@Crocket Add Z Coordinates? Sure, I guess I could, but do you really need them? I mean, You rarely have one path going "over" another path, just wondering why you'd like them. As for exporting a log of coordinates, erm, you mean like a giant text file that's added to each time the coordinates change? Just getting an idea of what you want here.

@AZHockeyNut Huh, a map marking system. Didn't consider the idea. Would you just want the odd "flag" to be put down or do you want to be able to draw lines and curves and other annotation?

@Patrick Carlson You've a great game and thank you for pushing for an ideal in contrast to many other games. There are few developers who know what sort of experience they want to share and do everything they can to create that experience; and they should always be appreciated. As an example, the first Dead Rising game permadeath and having to make tough choices about what you could do in limited time. This made the game harder, but also far more challenging and engaging and a lot of people loving it for what it was. Now with Dead Rising 4, the (completely different) developers remove a lot of the restrictions to appeal to a more mainstream audience. The first one was fun and unique; the most recent one is a generic zombie game among a sea of zombie games. Thank you for sticking to your vision. (now that I think of it, the first Dead Rising game had a survival mode too, long before Minecraft. Eating food to survive, fighting enemies, survive as long as you can, etc)

@nicko Go outside. No, that's not an insult. My mapping application ironically works a lot like a real GPS in that you have to be in an outside location in order for it to work. If you start the game indoors, you'll see the overview map, once you go outside it will update, when you go back inside the map will freeze at whatever your last outside location was.

To end on a vaguely philosophical note, I find the whole thing kinda like a metaphor for human development. We find new areas, we explore the wilderness, tackle the elements; then we map the areas, work out system, and finally develop technology that makes the whole thing easier. In the end, we're safer, but somehow less engaged and excited by our surroundings....

 

Anyway, take care all and thank you all again for all the good words and opinions about the WakeMapper. 

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I was thinking primitive like drop a flag on the map to mark a stash you want to go back to. Maybe you have a legend of several colors or maybe a single line note for each flag for what it represents? 

So I'm on CH and I leave a bunch of stuff in a house. I want to mark it to come back later. Something like that.

 

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