discussion Things trade value (recommended)!!!!!!!

[alone sniper]

so , Hi again guys. this is gonna be a big topic and i actually need your help!!!
we know that when NPCs come to game. it's great to trade with them. but you can't trade stick for rifle !!
so that mean each thing has a value for trade. but i should tell you about my idea:

1. when you want to sell anything the value of thing decrease by 10%. but don't worry i think something like bargaining skill should added to game.

2. we got 3 type of trader.  

   2-1. fisherman

   2-2. hunter

   2.3. scavenger

fisherman and hunter will buy their need(fishing tackle and ammo ) in high  value (nearly double) and give you fish and meat with Discount. 

and about things rate i try to sort item by respawn (like fir limb) weight and condition. 
so here is some of them. 

1. stick           20
2.  Reclaimed wood   40
3. cedar firewood       50
4. fir firewood        75 
5. fire log               80
6. coal           1000 /kg
7. book          50
8. survival book  200
9. torch  250
10. cloth 100
11. empty lantern 1000
12. kerosene 600/lit
13. cardboard match (20) 400
14. wood match (20) 500 
15. Firestriker  600
16. flare 300
17. Distress pistol shell 500
18. rifle ammo (5) 2000
19. tinder 20
20.  Magnifying lens 400
21. bedroll 1000
22. hook 200
23. line 200
24. fishing tackle 400
25. scrap 200
26. simple tool 2000
27. quality tool 3000
28. pry bar 750
29. whetstone 600
30. hatchet 2500
31. knife 3000
32. rifle  5000
33. Distress pistol 10000
34. sewing kit 500
35. soda 250
36. deer meat (roasted) 700
37. bear meat (roasted) 700
38. wolf meat (roasted)  600
39. deer meat  600
40. bear meat  600
41. wolf meat   500
42. salty cracker 800
43. Military-Grade MRE 2000

44. energy bar 1000

45. Beef jerky 1200

46. Condensed milk 1000

47. Cat tail stalk 1200/kg
     

48. Granola bar  800

49. Tin of sardines 750

50. Candy bar 750

51. Pork and beans 800

52. Peanut butter 750

53. Dog food 700

54. Tomato soup 600

55. Cup of herbal tea 200

56. Cup of coffee 200

57. Rose hip tea 250

58. ‎Reishi tea 250

59. Pinnacle peaches 500

60. Coho Salmon (Cooked) 300

61. Rabbit (Raw) 400

62. Smallmouth Bass (Cooked)  300

63. Lake Whitefsh (Cooked)  250

64. Rainbow Trout (Cooked) 200

65. Water (Potable) 100

and each of them multiplied by their condition. for example knife with 47 %  condition value is             3000*47%=1410
and thanks to @Wastelander for help.

So whats your idea?

[Dirmagnos]

And here we go with classical hack'n'slash trader options, where you can buy anything with just enough sticks.

Dont like whole idea in general. Not to mention simply horrible prices. Like firestrfiker(extremely rare and valuable item) having same price as piece of generic meat, similar thing with magnifying lens, or 5 rifle rounds for 3 pieces of meat that can yield player 5 deers that can easily equal to 40+ kilos of meat or 2 bears that go for 80+ kilos of meat.

Im sorry, but its typical shit for gold scheme.

[alone sniper]

1 minute ago, Dirmagnos said:

Dont like whole idea in general. Not to mention simply horrible prices. Like firestrfiker(extremely rare and valuable item) having same price as piece of generic meat, similar thing with magnifying lens, or 5 rifle rounds for 3 pieces of meat that can yield player 5 deers that can easily equal to 40+ kilos of meat or 2 bears that go for 80+ kilos of meat.

actually i don't want them to use my exact trade value. 
it's just a "raw idea".

 

but trade should be in game. we should have some business with NPCs . 

[Dirmagnos]

Ahh, my bad, jumped the gun.

I wouldnt mind trading, as long as its realistic, so that npcs wont even look at complete junk or wont price items that come from animals that are literally everywhere at same level as unreplenishable ammo or kerosene(while prices should wary, those are different people with different needs and wannts, chances for npc to  trade high quality items for just a few meat chunks would be extremely low). Also it would be nice if traders, as any normal human being, would have items that they are not willing to trade - no1 will trade his last pair or pants, that hes wearing, nor they will sell only rifle even if he has with just a few rounds for it, its basic survival.

So that player could go both dark, by killing and getting it all, or light, by trading some minor items, with a chance that word that hes a decent chap would spread and some other npc will recognize him "ahh, its you, John disribed you rather accurately, ya know, just between us, i have something something i was going to keep for myself, but id be willing to part with it... for a right price of course". And some1 may spot from afar that "this dude" is as dreaded as they come and next time you get a bullet in your gut instead of "hi", when you meet some1. Causality is a bitch.

[alone sniper]

6 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

Ahh, my bad, jumped the gun.

I wouldnt mind trading, as long as its realistic, so that npcs wont even look at complete junk or wont price items that come from animals that are literally everywhere at same level as unreplenishable ammo or kerosene(while prices should wary, those are different people with different needs and wannts, chances for npc to  trade high quality items for just a few meat chunks would be extremely low). Also it would be nice if traders, as any normal human being, would have items that they are not willing to trade - no1 will trade his last pair or pants, that hes wearing, nor they will sell only rifle even if he has with just a few rounds for it, its basic survival.

So that player could go both dark, by killing and getting it all, or light, by trading some minor items, with a chance that word that hes a decent chap would spread and some other npc will recognize him "ahh, its you, John disribed you rather accurately, ya know, just between us, i have something something i was going to keep for myself, but id be willing to part with it... for a right price of course". And some1 may spot from afar that "this dude" is as dreaded as they come and next time you get a bullet in your gut instead of "hi", when you meet some1. Causality is a bitch.

Thanks !!
you got a point. i know maybe i start a little bit early. but post like that can help devs to create a realistic trade system. 

[Dirmagnos]

There is never 2 early for ideas. In fact earlier they start, more refined they become in time.

I do a lot of modding and often spend 10 times more time making "just right" mod(or mod compilation) than actually playing, going thru dozens of iterations each step, adding and removing and balancing stuff.

Same goes for ideas.

[alone sniper]

So,

should NPCs trader have weight limit ? 

[Cosquake]

Oh man this sounds pretty sweet. I'm not very experienced in in-game trading systems but what if you could just present items to a trader and they will tell you what its worth and what they are willing to trade for it. So that, each items value is based off the the players reputation or their skill in bartering. I'd rather see something like this than a pre-set value for items.

[Dirmagnos]

NPCs are just other people, like you, surviving. Moving from place to place, even if they technically start off map and are just passing thru playable areas. Looking for place to stay, make camp, take some time off. Either for prolonged period of time or just passing by.

Altho there is also Twilight Zone possibility, that this all is a hoax, youre trapped in a giant social experiment and those are actors... or robots... Navigable area is conveniently contained. Even all the corpses look like they are clones. Jump doggy, jump...

Coastal Townsite sits on top of ancient burial mound, haunted, cursed grounds and our hero have to descent into darkness to pass thru all challenges and confront an ultimate evil, Diablo the Lord of Terror... hmm, no, im pretty sure thats wrong narrative...maybe...

[Wastelander]

2 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

NPCs are just other people, like you, surviving. Moving from place to place, even if they technically start off map and are just passing thru playable areas. Looking for place to stay, make camp, take some time off. Either for prolonged period of time or just passing by.

Altho there is also Twilight Zone possibility, that this all is a hoax, youre trapped in a giant social experiment and those are actors... or robots... Navigable area is conveniently contained. Even all the corpses look like they are clones. Jump doggy, jump...

Coastal Townsite sits on top of ancient burial mound, haunted, cursed grounds and our hero have to descent into darkness to pass thru all challenges and confront an ultimate evil, Diablo the Lord of Terror... hmm, no, im pretty sure thats wrong narrative...maybe...

With that approach, wouldn't crafting a tinfoil hat end the game?

4 minutes ago, Cosquake said:

Oh man this sounds pretty sweet. I'm not very experienced in in-game trading systems but what if you could just present items to a trader and they will tell you what its worth and what they are willing to trade for it. So that, each items value is based off the the players reputation or their skill in bartering. I'd rather see something like this than a pre-set value for items.

Reputation. Why haven't I thought of that? That's an IMMENSIVELY interesting idea with tons of useful application!

[Cosquake]

Thanks Wastelander! Reputation would add a whole new layer of immersion to the game. It would really make you think about the consequences for your actions. That being said, how could the NPCs know what you may have done to lower your Reputation? For example, If you were wandering around at night and spotted someone sleeping near their campfire, how would anyone know it was you that stole their bag while they slept? Just a thought, I'd love to hear what people come up with.

[Wastelander]

Just now, Cosquake said:

Thanks Wastelander! Reputation would add a whole new layer of immersion to the game. It would really make you think about the consequences for your actions. That being said, how could the NPCs know what you may have done to lower your Reputation? For example, If you were wandering around at night and spotted someone sleeping near their campfire, how would anyone know it was you that stole their bag while they slept? Just a thought, I'd love to hear what people come up with.

Programming-wise, it's been sort of done before - Skyrim had that wonderful system where you could eliminate witnesses to your crimes. So maybe reputation could be based on:

• Things you did (good or bad)
• Number of living witnesses
• Mobility of said witnesses
• Trustworthiness of said witnesses (noone's going to believe the boy who cried Wolf...)
• Population density of region

[Cosquake]

All good points. I'm especially interested to see situations that aren't readily apparent as "good" or "bad" but instead blur the line and really make you think. 

[Wastelander]

Just now, Cosquake said:

All good points. I'm especially interested to see situations that aren't readily apparent as "good" or "bad" but instead blur the line and really make you think. 

Morally ambigous situations are the best situations in storytelling - do we have any right to murder the guy who robs and kills everyone that crosses "his" crossroad? Was the homicide we committed in self-defense truly justified? Is it morally wrong to steal food when we're on the brink of starvation?

Oh, and here's a small example for my proposed reputation system and it's impact on trade:

There's a dude living in one of the lakeside sheds in Mystery Lake. One day, you decide that you want his stuff and murder him. Word gets out that he's dead, probably shot, but noone really knows who did it. However, you are one of the few people with a firearm there, and one of the fishermen saw you entering the hut. The fisherman, however, doesn't talk to people often so while the rumor is there, it's pretty contained, though it's spreading. People will recognize you though, simply because you match the description of a murderer and a thief, thus driving up prices.

[Cosquake]

Putting players in the situation you described would give them the freedom to choose how they want to survive making the game more realistic. Especially since this game is all about making hard choices and living with he consequences. I love it.

[Wastelander]

1 minute ago, Cosquake said:

Putting players in the situation you described would give them the freedom to choose how they want to survive making the game more realistic. Especially since this game is all about making hard choices and living with he consequences. I love it.

Glad we're on the same wave here! Also, in case I haven't said it yet - welcome to the forums!

[Cosquake]

Thanks so much, I'm really having a great time playing the game and interacting with this wonderful community!

[Boston123]

I hate trading mechanics where you can literally trade for anything with enough piles of shitty loot.

"Yeah, pal, I am totally going to trade you a rifle and 3 boxes of ammunition for 60 piles of sticks"  

Instead, we should have to use barter. Not an "RPG barter" system where each item has a magical "level of value", but a REAL barter system. A large problem with barter system is that both parties have to want something, and won't just take something for anything.

If I want arrowheads, and you have none, but have bullets instead, well......you are SOL.

And, just because there is no electricity, or forms of government, doesn't mean the idea of currency would disappear or physical money would become useless for anything other than tinder. Physical money is lightweight, easy to carry in bulk ( I can carry $200 far more easily than I can carry 200 arrows), hard to replicate (prevent inflation), and can easily be tied to specific goods. The reason the US $ is called "bucks" is because in Colonial times, in frontier trading posts, a tanned buckskin would be worth $1.

And then, even if the money isn't actually backed up by anything, there is still the idea that one day, the Canadian government would return and honor their currency. That in and of itself would lead to people hoarding, and using, physical currency.

And, as always, there are trade goods. I look to real life to serve as possible references.

-animal hides, with different hides (deer, wolf, rabbit, bear, etc) serving as different denominations. 

-Projectiles: bullets would be a high-value commodity, as they wouldn't be making them any more, while arrowheads would be a medium-value good.

-measured levels of high-proof alcohol. Used in Colonial times in the US as currency.

-measured amounts of preserved food. Smoked meat, dried fish, dried crops, all have value for the obvious reason. These would most likely be "ledger money" as opposed to "pocket money", as you can't easily carry around a bushel of potatoes easily.

[alone sniper]

3 hours ago, Boston123 said:

-animal hides, with different hides (deer, wolf, rabbit, bear, etc) serving as different denominations. 

-Projectiles: bullets would be a high-value commodity, as they wouldn't be making them any more, while arrowheads would be a medium-value good.

-measured levels of high-proof alcohol. Used in Colonial times in the US as currency.

-measured amounts of preserved food. Smoked meat, dried fish, dried crops, all have value for the obvious reason. These would most likely be "ledger money" as opposed to "pocket money", as you can't easily carry around a bushel of potatoes easily.

+1

[Dirmagnos]

8 hours ago, Wastelander said:

With that approach, wouldn't crafting a tinfoil hat end the game?

Well, im still playing. And what do you have against tinfoil hats ? They are quite comfortable, not to mention being extremely practical. Sleeping may be a bit problematic at first, but youl figure it out eventually.

Quote

Reputation. Why haven't I thought of that? That's an IMMENSIVELY interesting idea with tons of useful application!

Im not quite sure how does one rise barter as skill in given conditions and question fo reputation must be addressed with extreme caution. Last thing this game needs is "+1 Global Reputation for giving trader a piece of free meat" type of gameplay. And pls no Skyrim -type of crap, its exactly what this game doesnt need.

3 hours ago, Boston123 said:

Physical money is lightweight, easy to carry in bulk ( I can carry $200 far more easily than I can carry 200 arrows), hard to replicate (prevent inflation), and can easily be tied to specific goods. The reason the US $ is called "bucks" is because in Colonial times, in frontier trading posts, a tanned buckskin would be worth $1.

And then, even if the money isn't actually backed up by anything, there is still the idea that one day, the Canadian government would return and honor their currency. That in and of itself would lead to people hoarding, and using, physical currency.

Physical money will be just paper not worth even its own weight. Value of the money is based on either its own value(as gold coins) or its backing, that is gone, and idea that someday maybe things will get back on track, while youre hungry cold and tired today, doesnt really fly all that well.

Plus considering modern economical models, when western governments print far more paper without any actual cover, and that even during fairly stable periods its worth is based purely on momentum of existing economical system, with collapse of sad system money will become completely useless, permanently. Because for government it will be far easier to print more money again, and leave all that old paper(and all the bad shit, like debts and wars and inflation associated with it) behind. A fresh start, sorta.

And most people would be hoarding due to same erroneous presumption as why they may think that people are kind and good and whatever deep inside, Because they were tough it to be so from early years. And its extremely hard to let go when you have been conditioned whole your life to believe in it.

With lack of centralized financial system it will all become about utility, not weight. Nobody will give a shit that money if light, since it has no other values on its own. If hopes that something will happen one day that would make everything ok would have any worth ,then in(de)flation wouldnt be a major thing in economics.

In terms of currency id go with bullets and matches. Both are extremely useful. Bullets also having an extreme value, relatively small and light, for major transactions. While matches, also being critical resource, are far more abundant, while maintaining extremely low weight and occupying extremely little space., serving more in mid- to lowgrade transactions. Due to lack of demand hides would make poor currency, with low value, high weight and taking a lot of space.

[alone sniper]

11 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

In terms of currency id go with bullets and matches. Both are extremely useful. Bullets also having an extreme value, relatively small and light, for major transactions. While matches, also being critical resource, are far more abundant, while maintaining extremely low weight and occupying extremely little space., serving more in mid- to lowgrade transactions. Due to lack of demand hides would make poor currency, with low value, high weight and taking a lot of space.

i am more comfortable with match bullets are rare a bit.
+1

[alone sniper]

On Monday, July 04, 2016 at 1:20 AM, Wastelander said:

 

Oh, and here's a small example for my proposed reputation system and it's impact on trade:

There's a dude living in one of the lakeside sheds in Mystery Lake. One day, you decide that you want his stuff and murder him. Word gets out that he's dead, probably shot, but noone really knows who did it. However, you are one of the few people with a firearm there, and one of the fishermen saw you entering the hut. The fisherman, however, doesn't talk to people often so while the rumor is there, it's pretty contained, though it's spreading. People will recognize you though, simply because you match the description of a murderer and a thief, thus driving up prices.

+1

[MarrowStone]

Im glad you guys mentioned "reputation" points, this sort of system has impressed me in the past with games

I kinda pictured the trading system working in a same way as the game "Darkwood" 

There is no "Global" reputation nor trading skill, you only get reputation points for doing favors for the people or giving them what they want. For example:

This one character, Wolfman, values his guns and ammunition, molotovs, bandages etc, but as soon as you offer him a piece of scrap metal, he goes,

"I dont want this shit, meat!"

Another trader somewhere else values scrap and toolboxes and welders though. But whatever reputation you earned for one person never transfers over to another.

If we could couple this with NPCs that dont stay in one place, or at least arent always sitting in camp waiting for you, itd make it even harder to find where to drop off your junk. 

Also adding universal junk items that no one buys would be good too, like sticks, cattails, tinder, cotton clothing/cloth, food below certain condition, and water.

 

[alone sniper]

@MarrowStone I think the best trade system goes for " this war of mine " trade system !!! 

[vancopower]

Yes barter is the most efficient way of trade, I also love the " this war of mine " trading system, however some common items like sticks and wood should not be eligible for trade, meat or any type of food however has worth. Other things like rose hip tea and old mans beard dressing also will have value that a player may make to trade them for something less common. Also now that things can wash up on shore, they are not unique and as such they are eligible for trade. Imagine that you have a base in DP and in 30 days you've found 30 painkillers and 10 bullets. Wouldn't  you trade off these items for some delicious meat, furs, matches especially if you don't have a rifle ? than what good are the bullets? 

My suggestion on this subject is as this topic states the trade value should be influenced by the need of the NPC:

Fishermen would like hooks, scrap metal, guts , lines,

and would offer more with a decreased value: Fish oil, raw fish, cooked fish.

Hunter would love bullets, arrows. and would offer meat furs at discount.

Scavenger or beachcomber more precise will offer matches, pills, cloth scrap metal and would love fur cloth, and coal (to keep warm when scavenging)

Also there should be a large community where you could find rare items and more variety at general trader but at terrible rate for example 40KG meat for 5 scrap metal, or 40 kg meat for 3 bullets. 35 KG coal for 2 flares.  Or if you buy meat: 1 kg meat for 1 scrap metal. 4 kg meat for 1 bullet. 3 kg coal for 1 flare.  This is only an example I'm sure that the devs would come up with more realistic trade values.