Return arrowhead crafting to workbench, Part 2

[Eames]

Desolation Point update was the only update that took game for the worse. I’m still salty about it. Forge was a complicated solution to a nonexistent problem. It's awkward from both realism’s and gameplay’s points of view. Realism, because there’s no need for forge (let that sink in - whole freaking forge!) to make arrowheads or tools in a survival scenario (let alone that forge being in a desolate ship). Gameplay, because the artificial requirements are almost comical - you need to travel to a dead end region, get coal along the way, take the hammer (that’s always at the same spot), heat up the forge and only then you can craft. Compare this to the old way of just needing workbench, scrap and toolbox - much more natural and elegant.

- It all but removes previous metal crafting mechanic from the game. It also makes toolboxes (and their levels) irrelevant. Ironically there’s so many knives and hatches that there’s no need craft any. Even enough arrowheads can be collected. So what’s the problem then?
- The problem is that it breaks the “different but equal” balance of starting positions. Now it’s the best starting location - craft some arrowheads, get the rifle and never return again.
- Also crafting bow and arrows used to be a fun mid-game activity but now it’s ruined by an artificial barrier. If I started playing at, say, Pleasant Valley – what am I supposed to do? Travel half the game’s world and back just for some arrowheads? Seem stupid. While staying there or at CH seems forced.

In the end it feels as if developers not wanted you to do something so they added a handicap. OR they wanted to you to something you don’t so they added a requirement. Not fun. I can only guess, but it seems that DP was a labor of love and since region itself has no reason to visit it apart aesthetics, they changed whole metal crafting system and added a forge to it. “There, now you’ll visit DP at least once – whether you like it or not!” [evil laughter]

The best/easiest solution would be to add “improvised” arrowhead crafting to the workbench. They would need only scrap + toolbox and would degrade by use. For realists – imagine that they are made from folded soda can aluminum. Another one would be to add forges to all regions but that makes DP obsolete. It seems you need to make DP more visitable first. That could be done by:
- Adding a connection to Timberwolf Mountain. According to the map they’re next to each other.
- Adding fishing huts and more deer to it. It’s the only region without fishing.
- Harder but better solution would be to expand region by adding forest space between locations (lighthouse, plant, church, mines). Right now in DP there’s even no need to ever light a campfire - you can always make it to shelter instead.

All in all – it’s not a Desolation Point, but more like Pointless Desolation (of the forge).

[dbldrew]

I agree.. Maybe you can make an arrowhead on a workbench that is not a permanent arrowhead? when the arrow brakes the arrowhead is shot. and the arrow heads made at the forge are a stronger arrowhead that dont break maybe? 

[Wastelander]

4 hours ago, dbldrew said:

I agree.. Maybe you can make an arrowhead on a workbench that is not a permanent arrowhead? when the arrow brakes the arrowhead is shot. and the arrow heads made at the forge are a stronger arrowhead that dont break maybe? 

Balancing-wise, this would be a good descision actually. Realistically though, the forge is simply out of place in the first place - forging even simple knives takes extensive knowledge, and arrowheads are even more difficult due to being generally small, flimsy and they need to be shafted. I said it once and I'll say it again, it's much more efficient to just sharpen the shaft with a knife or maybe tape/glue a random screw or nail on it. Even bone/tooth arrowheads make more sense than the forge.

However, if we do go with your suggestions, which, I repeat, isn't bad at all, we'd probably have to add a new arrow-type item - the simple arrow, with a makeshift arrowhead and the quality arrow with a forged arrowhead. Slight difference in damage, quality arrow flies further or something like that.

[Tbone555]

i personally liked the idea of the forge at first. that is, until i realized how unrealistic it is and how much knowledge and skill metalworking takes.
i think crafting arrowheads and basic tools could be improved. for instance, we could make primitive tools. a knife from deer antler, maybe a hatchet from stone. these tools wouldnt be as effective as modern tools, but they'll be better than nothing in a pinch. and as for arrowheads, theres such a wide variety there. you can make them from steel, stone, glass, wood, all kinds of things. really, all you need to do is take a sturdy stick, sharpen it, then burn the sharpened end to harden it. and there you go, a basic arrow.
all in all, the forge has just left a bad taste in my mouth, honestly

[Wastelander]

Just now, Tbone555 said:

i personally liked the idea of the forge at first. that is, until i realized how unrealistic it is and how much knowledge and skill metalworking takes.
i think crafting arrowheads and basic tools could be improved. for instance, we could make primitive tools. a knife from deer antler, maybe a hatchet from stone. these tools wouldnt be as effective as modern tools, but they'll be better than nothing in a pinch. and as for arrowheads, theres such a wide variety there. you can make them from steel, stone, glass, wood, all kinds of things. really, all you need to do is take a sturdy stick, sharpen it, then burn the sharpened end to harden it. and there you go, a basic arrow.
all in all,

This.

Knives and stuff are also pretty durable - I think I said it before, but the main thing that breaks is the handle, and considering the sheer abundance of wood, a new one can be crafted relatively simply. I don't buy axes IRL, I just buy the heads and fashion my own handles, it's way cheaper and it's fun (15€ for an axehead or 60€ for a complete axe, the individual handle, even when bought from a hardware store, is way cheaper). A functioning (although not necessarily ergonomically perfect) knife handle can be made from duct tape.

When it comes to arrowheads, the most difficult thing to achieve is the shafting, that requires a lot of experience and a trained blacksmith, which neither playable character is background-wise. So yeah, a sharpened, fire-hardened stick is way easier to craft and does the same job.

Bone tools are possible and feasible, but require some knowledge to make, same goes for flintknapping and other methods of stone tool production - could be something learned by reading a book. For a knife, a piece of glass taped to a stick will do the job just as fine, and there should be a lot of glass to be found - empty booze bottles, broken windows, you name it. Same goes for ceramics - there's got to be some plates around somewhere. People have also produced homemade machetes and stuff from scrap metal and wood, so the possibilities IRL are endless and only limited by programming resources.

[Wastelander]

Just as a small addendum, this is what we're doing in nigh-complete darkness on a stranded ship in the middle of nowhere with no previous knowledge on how to do this with only one hammer that is way too large for the task at hand with inferior materials in a ridiculously hot environment.

[Wastelander]

Notice all that equipment?

[Tbone555]

^ that is definitely a beautiful blade. you dont really know how much skill blacksmithing takes until you watch videos such as these.
i mean, who's to say our survivor isnt an expert blacksmith? i suppose you can give him whatever background you want.. but the fact of it is, your average joe is not going to be able to flawlessly craft blades and arrowheads in a forge without training and proper know-how.
if hinterland just INSISTS on keeping the forge around, i wont argue with their decision. though i will give some ideas to make it a tad more realistic.

LET US MAKE IMPROVISED ARROWHEADS AND TOOLS FROM THE WORKBENCH!!!
these tools won't be as sturdy as the forged arrowheads and tools, and would break after just a few uses. but its something to have in a pinch, and will make long-term survival more plausable. frankly, i find it impossible to survive in the long dark without a hatchet. so many times a stone axe could have saved my life.

make forging a SKILL.
when you first encounter the forge, it wont be good for anything but heating the riken. however, we should be able to find skill books. blacksmithing for dummies, or something along those lines. (i dunno, im just spitballing here )
we would be able to read this skill book, and once we level our forging skill a bit with that, we'll have a very basic understanding of blacksmithing. enough to fire it up and give it a go. though, our first tools will be fragile and we'll probably suffer a burn or major bruising (from hitting ourselves with the hammer by accident).. our first tools will be, by no means, reliable. 4 - 5 uses at most. but as we forge more and more, and create more tools, levelling our blacksmithing skill, we'll be able to create much more sturdy tools in less time without injuring ourselves in the process. maybe be able to engrave little designs and be able to repair our tools as needed, at the top skill level.
gotta admit, it would be a nice hobby for our survivor. and it would be completely optional choice, as long as we can make improvised tools in addition. hell, if i need to defend myself against a wolf or need to harvest an animal, i'd just smash a car window, wrap a shard of glass with cloth and use that.

[sierra 117]

yeah I agree that we should have different types of arrowheads, I kinda like the soda can idea its something that's already in the game and would make for a good but less durable type of arrow.

for realism sake it would make more sense for some one with no knowledge of forging.to think of folding an old soda/food can into a crude arrow tip ,

then maybe after you've made x amount of crude arrows and found a repair/forging book you unlock the ability/knowledge to make proper metal ones

[Dirmagnos]

Forge is an interestign idea, but it feels that it was forced. As its an advanced tool without any advanced schematics to go with it.

As placeholder its ok, but i belive that devs took wrong direction with this one. Forge should be used solely for advanced tools(that we dont have yet) and additional processing, like tempering of hand-made metal tools-weapons. At the same time, in terms of evolution of crafting it should have gone into direction of simpler tools, flint knapping, bone and wood working(glass for good measure), far more extended leather working and tailoring, salvage tin cans after eating and make something out of them, etc

Id like to be able to make tinder box, bone arrowheads, hooks and needles(for handmade sewing kit), wolf boots and deer hat, spears and clubs, cut hides and cloth in patches, so that i wont have to waste whole hide on repairing minuscule damage, make new hatchet handle and replace exiting one for good boost of durability, etc

[Signo Vir]

I just made my way out to desolation point and crafted 48 arrowheads. This sandbox character will probably never return. He found 10 arrows/heads in the wild and never lost one anyways. Those 48 arrowheads will greatly outlast supplies of birch saplings.

 

I agree with most of what's been said above. The improvised knives and hatchet aren't really needed.

The forge itself isn't an all bad idea, though it absolutely should have a skill attached. And it should only be required for crafting advanced items. e.g. machete (simple), lantern (medium complexity), ammo press (really complex/high skill). 

If you look at the craftable clothes with ~20 hour work times, I could see some blacksmithing options that work on that timescale or longer. Skill rank increases success chance and decreases craft time. 

 

6 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

hooks and needles(for handmade sewing kit), 

This is already done with the fishing tackle. 

[Dirmagnos]

15 hours ago, Signo Vir said:

This is already done with the fishing tackle. 

I wannt separate tool that dont rely on salvaged metal. Plus, tackle has rather notable time penalties and you cant craft with it.

[frozenbanjo]

came here from the reddit where this OP was first made, just to concur thats the forge feels like a clunky way to get us to visit what was then the new area, DP. most of those in a mid to long term run wouldve visited DP anyway simply for the saplings there, in addition to whatever extra loot could be had. if they want us to move about to the different regions more often, stop having deer respawn every 3 days. all wildlife respawns way too quickly. i can trap 4-6 rabbits a day in the same spot for weeks on end? nonsense. i shouldnt be able to find a deer for sometimes a week at a time, or longer, especially if i've been hunting them in the same area for a few weeks. that right there would force us to move to different locations more often. hopefully the current implementation of the forge is just exactly what someone above said, a placeholder, and that it will be tweaked in future iterations

[Zambudjo]

I don't really get your frustration about the forge. Imo it's underexploited. As you said you don't need to go in the forge in DP. You can find knifes, hatchet and arrowheads alll over the rest of the map. I think DP's forge should have some unique tools that you can only get if you craft them there (and I don't mean some overweighted knifes or hatchet).
 

I like to think that the aim of the game is to move around the map constantly and that this gamestyle should be rewarded. The forge should have unique features that are either essential for survival in the long run (an alternative to the deplation of knifes and hatchet was the initial intent I beleive) or an extra boost (horseshoes for horses in the next releases??).

[Eames]

My frustration with it for few reasons. One – right now it's an awkwardly tacked on addition that is dysfunctional. Yes, it's not that necessary but I don't want this game to start accumulating broken mechanics. I'd rather they fix existing mechanics than add new ones. There's still extinguished campfires that need attention since the release. Two – forge helps neither nomadic nor grounded playstyles. If you're traveling a lot, you sure as hell aren't visiting DP because it's so far away. If you're stationary, you are punished for staying anywhere but CH.

Game is not perfect and if no one will bitch about problems they may never get addressed.

[nicko]

17 minutes ago, Eames said:

My frustration with it for few reasons. One – right now it's an awkwardly tacked on addition that is dysfunctional. Yes, it's not that necessary but I don't want this game to start accumulating broken mechanics. I'd rather they fix existing mechanics than add new ones. There's still extinguished campfires that need attention since the release. Two – forge helps neither nomadic nor grounded playstyles. If you're traveling a lot, you sure as hell aren't visiting DP because it's so far away. If you're stationary, you are punished for staying anywhere but CH.

Game is not perfect and if no one will bitch about problems they may never get addressed.

I agree somewhat, going to the forge to craft arrows heads kind of sucks. it makes the bow redundant in most game plays. I would of rather seen it the other way around you need to go to forge to make parts for your rifle, if that is possible or make the forge craft other special parts.

[ZlatanHazard]

I think they made the forge to give Desolation Point a purpose . To be honest , if the forge wasn't there , i would never bother to go to DP because of how pointless that region is , i mean it's so small , has little loot and harsh weather , the only reason i ever go there is to make arrowheads and get the heck outta there as soon as i'm done .

[Zambudjo]

I must miss something

10 hours ago, Eames said:

One – right now it's an awkwardly tacked on addition that is dysfunctional.

I don't het how it's dysfunctional? If I understand your point DP became a nice location because it's the only place where you can craft arrowheads. What's wrong with that? According to others, if you remove the forge or the exclusivity of arrowhead crafting in DP, then you can basically remove DP from the map... (For the record, I disagree with this pov). It's a good thing that finding/crafting arrowheads is challenging. Otherwise it just makes the game too easy. Also, you don't need to craft arrowheads, you can find 3 to 5 arrowheads just in PV and use them indefinitely. What is the point of having 100 arrowheads? They never break...

10 hours ago, Eames said:

Two – forge helps neither nomadic nor grounded playstyles. If you're traveling a lot, you sure as hell aren't visiting DP because it's so far away. If you're stationary, you are punished for staying anywhere but CH.

For nomadic playstyle having one extra location is just nice For campers, why would you stay in CH? Get your 10 arrowheads and go camp in the Dam if you want to. I have a nomadic playstyle and DP is one of my favorite location to go to just because it's probably the most beautiful location and one that is challenging.

It's seems like you need 1000 arrowheads to survive. I would get it if arrowheads could break but as far I know it's not the case. Find 5-10 arrows, don't loose them and you're fine for the rest of the game.

 

My last input on the matter is that the game is not finished yet. Pretty sure the forge is in alpha stage and that new unique features will appear involving the forge. Plus, if you look at the world map, DP will connect CH with what will probably be the only big town of the game. So DP will be the next PV imo

[frozenbanjo]

i can only assume that, if the roadmap is an indicator, and they do implement 'Gunsmithing & ammunition crafting', the forge will also be the go-to spot for that as well. 

[continuity]

You can make metal arrowheads just by hammering barbed wire cold ( I think i read somewhere about aborigines in Australia doing that) and why no flint? though practically speaking there should be enough suitable wire around that you shouldn't need flint for arrowheads. 

[nicko]

yeah like they just grabbed a hammer and beat out some barbed wire to make an arrow head I doubt that lol. If anything they would of made a spear head of some sort. Australian aborigines have never use bow and arrows, Until modern white influence days!

anyways yeah we need more ways to craft arrow heads, arrow shafts and eventually bows.

Why? I went hunting with bow arrow, wow takes forever to get your aim in. Pretty much missed ever shot lost few arrows due to wear and tear.

anyway I am harvesting the broken arrows I find and creating new ones.seems to be working well so far! until I run out.