Hunger and Item degradation

[kerenos]

Alright just tried this game for the first time today and played all evening. It's really good so far. I love it.

But i really think that item degradation should be much much lower.. i mean geez.. do i have to go trough clothes like there's an acid storm outside? Hey i actually live in Canada and we get -40 weather every winter. I wouldn't want to stay outside even with the best coat on for too long so i find that part is pretty realistic. Also Hunger. You need to eat like 10 cans of food and 5 venison steak per day in order for you hunger meter to be green. (am i exaggerating? It sure feels that way..i haven't played enough yet..) But it would be better if i didn't have to constantly find food and more food..just to survive a single day. The thirst seems to work pretty well.. you drink more or less 1L of water and your meter is green... but not for food..

I don't know if others agree with me or not... but maybe a good and easy solution would be to have difficulty sliders in options so that you can set how much you want all the survival settings to be? That would please everyone wouldn't it? you can just use whatever settings you like.

anyways, LOVE this game so far. I will keep playing and i can't wait to see what else is coming.

Keep up the good work!

[robdoar]

Item condition is being tuned.

The calorie intake is modeled after real-life circumstances, and accelerated proportionally for the increased time speed.

I suspect you are trying to maintain 100% condition.

In cold weather, the body needs 6000-8000 calories to mantain condition.

In the game, if you eat nothing, and take care of everything else, you'll live for 4 days before condition drops to zero. This captures the real-life aspect. Sure, you're hungry, but you can push on for a while before it seriously affects you.

In real life lost survivors are never at 100% Maintaining 100% condition is not the goal of the game.

Try this next time you play... take care of everything else, but don't worry about food until your condition drops quite a bit. Then feed yourself to >2000 calories, ensure all other needs are met, and rest.

[DaveyJay1984]

I agree in some ways. The item degradation is extreme. I spent 10 days. 8 of those days inside sleeping then eating and drinking. I eventually died from exposure because my clothes broke... Then there is a hatchet breaking after about 6 hours of foraging for wood. My axe still works fine after 5 years of splitting wood and no maintenance. Finally food degradation... I'm freezing but my food which presumably must be freezing too is going off quicker thanbi can eat it... Even the tinned stuff. But as mentioned, this is being looked into and we are still early access.

My big gripes though, are not being able to multitask and time. Put water on to boil, head outside for more wood to extend fire life or repair some items come back and grab water. Or even put a huge pile of snow on and let it cook right through to boil. Someone mentioned having to sit for 2 hours real time for a snow storm to clear but that is when I feel I should be sleeping or doing prep work inside. Both of these being changed would be nice, one being changed would be nice. Even a game time option in game setup. choose real time or game time.

Anyway... Lots of fun. Beautiful to look at. Loving it and look forward to the future.

[Ruhroe]

The game works because it makes you constantly prioritize what to do next, and is unforgiving time wise. It's the ever present threat of running out of food, clothing and wood, which makes it necessary to chose what to do next. Want to walk out and explore and get to the next cabin? Then you need to be ready. Check clothing condition, food and water supply, and even the weather. If any of these elements are too easy then dying becomes much less certain and the challenge is removed. From what I can tell, there really is no win condition anyway: you are going to die sooner than later. The test is putting off the inevitable as many days as you can.

All that said, I do think degradation needs tweaking. The Axe and crowbar stand out, and go too quickly compared to the hunting knife and can openers. Both of the later seem reasonable. Perhaps the metal axe head can also be saved after the axe reaches zero, at least, and fixed with a proper log and tools (though I realize that would make perpetual survival much more likely). Perhaps the log needed could be very hard to find. The crowbar should be able to open more than a locker or two.

[Zilla]

In cold weather, the body needs 6000-8000 calories to maintain condition.

This of course is assuming you stand out in the freezing weather 24/7, which you don't. Last night i reached temps of 80 in a cabin, yet i still managed to die due to dehydration. I slept for 12 hrs but drank about 6 hrs before bed - thirst was about halfway and orangish-green. I made a decision to wait til morning to drink. So, 18hrs without a drink and i die? (was inside all day)

Also, a couple of days before I was in a cabin most of the day, except for 2 hrs to forge for wood; I ate 2lbs of meat that morning and by the end of the day i'm negative calories? (all the while maintaining a temp of 65ish degrees)

There is definitely room for some balancing. But overall, i'm really loving this game.

[jgxxxx]

Yeah I agree with pretty much everything here. Plus I get food poisoning like every other day, which is a bit annoying especially since it doesn't seem to be affected by the condition of the meat.

And one last thing, the percentage of successfully starting fires seems to be wrong? I've failed so many times when I had over 90% chance of staring them, I also failed 8! times in a row when it was about 65% might be a glitch or I'm just super unlucky :cry:

I think this pretty much sums it up:

06:38 Ate Beef Jerky.

06:39 Ate Beef Jerky.

06:40 Ate Pork and Beans.

06:42 Not Starving

06:43 Ate Pinnacle Peaches.

06:47 Ate Candy Bar.

06:55 Went to sleep.

07:55 Woke up after sleeping 1 hour

08:59 Starving

[Lukio]

"Breakfast": Beef Jerky, Can of Pork & Beans, Peanut butter, some Pineapple and 2 Sodas

3 hours later: "Starving"

Also how do I burn 100 calories per hour during sleeping? On what is this number based? 6h Sleeping = 600 calories seems a bit to simplistic. 300-400 would be more accurate for 6 hours. An average person burns between 50 and 85 kcal (depending on weight with 85 being for someone weighing 120-130 kgs) per hour of sleep.

It might be interesting to internally break up food into proteins, fat and sugar. This might make calculations more accurate, for example during sleep you mostly "burn" fat. But you do not starve or feel extreme hunger because of burned fat. It's proteins and glucose that you are lacking.

---

Regarding item degradation - a sewing kit can last for several years, a rifle does not degrade immediately from 1 shot, a knife won't get blunt / fall apart from gutting one deer. Sure after a while they will degrade if you do not hone / clean your tools, but we are talking about 100-200 rounds fired or cutting several bones with a knife. For example I can filet about 60-80 fishes before I feel the need to hone my fishing knife and even then I could filet another 50 fishes without major issues. Items do degrade, especially in cold / wet environment but not within 2 days.

[CremionisD]

One more player here (with a couple of hours playtime only), but I feel the same problems with the game: One has to eat all the time. If you eat meat, then it seems that every second or third steak gives food poisoning. (even if cooked a few hours before). This area needs attention and balancing.

Another issue is the item degradation, which is insanely high. Granted, IRL I've bought me two or three can-openers, but not because of the old one broke down, but because I've lost it when moving from one flat to another. They last for years on end, as do most things that are important in the game (like hatchets, tools, sewing kits etc..). Usually, I find that I've broken a tool, it's because I was using it wrong (i.e. user error), not because of degradation. BTW: Even a broken tool might be usable in survival situation, where one needs to use whatever there's access to. It's not be as effective though..

From game mechanic point of view, I understand that if a tool never breaks down you will not be able to put many on a map to keep the "value" of the item. If there is only one hatchet on a map, people may find to too hard/impossible to find. So, to get the balance right is a serious challenge.

Anyway, it is a good game, and has the potential to be great!

[robdoar]

While I agree that item degregation is too quick, if you're comparing it to what happens "In real life" you're missing the point.

I've been in 5 week winter survival classes. Trust me, you do not want to make a game out of. You would never sell a copy.

Yes, it needs to be fixed, but no, items can't last for "years", otherwise there'd be no challenge to the game.

[The Silverback]

I also agree that the degradation is off. While the extreme conditions would certainly mess with some equipment, I don't think it is realistic as it is.

Obviously this is a game and not real life but it needs to accurately portrait what it would be like as much as possible. I don't see how opening a can would degrade a can opener in any significant way seeing as I have a can opener that is 10 years old and is as good as the day I bought it.

Same thing goes for knives and axes - they can certainly get damaged and do need maintenance but only when seriously abused would they deteriorate at the same rate as the game. Clothes also degrade far too fast.

I am sure that these things and hunger/thirst are things that are being fine tuned and added to so will change a few times before the official release.

[andruin]

Obviously this is a game and not real life but it needs to accurately portrait what it would be like as much as possible.

I agree 100%. The "as much as possible" tradeoff the devs are making is balancing the accurate portrayal of real life against making a fun and challenging game.

[Lukio]

Just wanted to return to this thread (yeah yeah necro) and say that I feel this issue with item degradation has been fully and satisfactory addressed.

Knives, Rifles and other "hard" objects now seem to degrade at a reasonable rate. Things that might get abused like toolboxes and sewing kits seem to degrade realistically as well. Calorie use during sleep seems fine as well. Good Job!

[AmericanSteel]

Again, item decay is being looked at... so I am not going to beat that horse anymore.

Until the devs tie calorie consumed to the players temp, then calorie consumption is going to way off. I think the basic method assumes you are outside the entire time, which is fine... if we were outside the entire time. As soon as we shelter in place (inside or out) the dynamics need to change to be realistic. While this has been changed to some degree while in a bed, it still needs some work. I should not burn the current calorie load while sitting indoors, in front of a fire place, reading the less-than-current events in this newspaper I just found. Until this is done the calorie load of an item can't really be addressed nor the item load in a kill.

[Hobbesyb]

I'm adding my voice to the others on that problem.

I don't see why one would be dehydrated after sleeping 10 hours in a house. Thirsty, yes. Dehydrated, no.

And also, clothes decay to fast. I think we should have a way to craft every clothes from natural elements (not only coat, mittens and boots), and harverst the tapestries found in house like we do for reclaimed wood.

This, plus a slower decay would be great.

I can understand why one would accelerate the real decay rates, for the game to be playable. But I don't mind having a longer game with more realistic times and rates. It would give room to more adventures !

Keep up the good work !

[SteveP]

I'd like to know how quickly each item degrades with use and then I'd like to know the optimal point to do repairs so that I get the most amount of use for the resources of metal which cannot be foraged. You can always forage fir and get game for leather for other items but ultimately the knife and hatchet are key tools that must be used judiciously. I hate to see people harvesting a perfectly good knife or hatchet just to get metal to do minor repair. That seems silly. If you have spares, you should use the item up until it breaks keeping track of the wear as you go.

For real survivors an important strategy is to keep a careful record book of things; we can also do this in TLD using a notebook either in RL or on the computer. This will greatly benefit others by tracking wear under different usage conditions.

Also, there should be a way to keeping a fishing hole open when not in use by inserting branches in it just like in RL.

[joki]

Even if you dont jostle with the wolves, any action outside takes off a lot of your clothes' condition: Just by being outside a few days degrades clothes so much, that soon you will have used up all your cloth, so thats probably why people play hibernation mode so much. :cry: Last time I played, after my shoes had broken, I went downhill and took a little bit of a fall... I mean like barely enough to lose a few % condition and then also my socks just... BROKE. I mean, how can socks break, when you fall 1,5 meters? :lol:

I know, they do it all for the balance, since if the clothes would last forever there would not be much need to find need stuff but they might want to tone it down a little, especially for clothing degradation.

[elloco999]

I can't say I find that my clothes degrade all that fast outside as long as the weather is fair. Being outside in bad weather does degrade clothes quite fast.