Penitent Scholar - Early Feedback

[Ohbal]

I think all experienced players on this forum agree on the game being way too easy once you get to know what to do. I however don't have a clue about what is the average survival of a new player, or the average survival of TLD player base, so who knows what's going on out there. 

Main issue for us giving feedback now is lack of knowledge about where the game is going. I think there is one element in the roadmap that will drastically change the experience the game offers, and quite a lot of the current mechanics, and I'm talking about seasons. 

How could the game get harder? My guess is that the gameplay of each season will raise a challenge to survive the next one. 

The winter will most likely be tuned so there is way less wildlife. Less dears and more wolves and bears and cougars. And their agressiveness will probably be tuned up. Winter will probably become be the most dangerous season, the one you have to survive as the game start, and the one you have to prepare to. 

if I had to guess a reason for Hinterland not making those gameplay changes now (if there are to happen at all, of course, everything I say is just speculation) is that the game would become really hard for the newcomers, and some of the mechanics we would need to survive the winter may not be there yet.  

[hauteecolerider]

This.

We can't forget when giving feedback that this is only a Sandbox game currently, released for the purpose of troubleshooting game bugs and tweaking existing game mechanics as the devs go along. 

Story Mode, the final version of this game, I suspect will be an entirely different beast altogether.

[Ruruwawa]

Tbh, I'm a little reluctant to play TLD now because I don't want to earn those Feats and permanently nerf the game's difficulty.  For Skills I could reroll for a higher difficulty game.  But with Feats, I'm stuck with the reduced difficulty forever.   (BTW, I'm not one of the folks looking for an uberhard challenge.  I play mostly Voyageur with a little Stalker on the side.)

But I think there may be a play for a "credit for past accomplishments" system that would help and encourage folks to restart after a death. I favor a system like this because it's great for new players just learning the game, where reduced difficulty is the most welcome.  Whereas the Feats system applies only to the most hardcore players.

I'm thinking of something like a "Carry over one random skill from last life" checkbox that you could choose -- optionally -- when creating a new sandbox.  It would apply, at random, one of the skill levels earned in the last playthrough.  

[Ohbal]

9 minutes ago, Ruruwawa said:

Tbh, I'm a little reluctant to play TLD now because I don't want to earn those Feats and permanently nerf the game's difficulty.  For Skills I could reroll for a higher difficulty game.  But with Feats, I'm stuck with the reduced difficulty forever.   (BTW, I'm not one of the folks looking for an uberhard challenge.  I play mostly Voyageur with a little Stalker on the side.)

I'm on the same boat, although I can't stop playing  

Anyway, I'd be willing to bet that we'll be able to toogle the feats off sooner rather than later

[TSmith]

On 7/6/2016 at 9:02 AM, Ohbal said:

On 7/3/2016 at 3:08 PM, Ohbal said:

I think all experienced players on this forum agree on the game being way too easy once you get to know what to do. I however don't have a clue about what is the average survival of a new player, or the average survival of TLD player base, so who knows what's going on out there. 

Main issue for us giving feedback now is lack of knowledge about where the game is going. I think there is one element in the roadmap that will drastically change the experience the game offers, and quite a lot of the current mechanics, and I'm talking about seasons. 

How could the game get harder? My guess is that the gameplay of each season will raise a challenge to survive the next one. 

The winter will most likely be tuned so there is way less wildlife. Less dears and more wolves and bears and cougars. And their agressiveness will probably be tuned up. Winter will probably become be the most dangerous season, the one you have to survive as the game start, and the one you have to prepare to. 

if I had to guess a reason for Hinterland not making those gameplay changes now (if there are to happen at all, of course, everything I say is just speculation) is that the game would become really hard for the newcomers, and some of the mechanics we would need to survive the winter may not be there yet.  

 

On 7/6/2016 at 9:02 AM, Ohbal said:

I'm on the same boat, although I can't stop playing  

Anyway, I'd be willing to bet that we'll be able to toogle the feats off sooner rather than later

I'm on the same boat, although I can't stop playing  

Anyway, I'd be willing to bet that we'll be able to toogle the feats off sooner rather than later

 

 

Perhaps we could get different "characters" . Hinterlands added more save slots, perhaps they could add more "characters" with 5 save slots for each?

Or, i would hate to do it, but I assume resetting your stats would make you start fresh

[Patrick Carlson]

Thanks everyone for your continued, thoughtful feedback in this thread. One question I have for those of you concerned about the perceived difficulty of survival: Do you find yourself altering your approach to the game in response to the Skills and Feats? Do the (potential) bonuses they afford you change how you explore the Sandbox?

[cekivi]

Personally, I'm not going to change my play style to avoid getting feats. Since the feats are so comprehensive to do so means not playing how I enjoy playing. As I mentioned, I'm happy with some feats but others I'm less thrilled for.

 

[Scyzara]

7 hours ago, Patrick Carlson said:

Do the (potential) bonuses they afford you change how you explore the Sandbox?

I'm actually trying not to play the sandbox any more except after new updates (or exp. branch updates) that might possibly benefit from my feedback/bug reports. And even then I'll try to limit my playing time to not more than 10-20 rl hours. I just don't see another way to avoid getting the feats, unfortunately. 

[norup]

I now avoid sprinting, unless absolutely necessary, as the idea of the upcoming permanent bonus annoys me.

[ShawnB]

I haven't altered my playstyle at all due to feats or skills. I definately don't want the feat bonus and I don't tend to play past 70 days because things get too easy then (even though I still have 300 hrs played). 

[nicko]

I am sprinting every time I get a chance to get the 25% fewer calories bonus - thanks. any perks == awesome if you ask me.

I think the issue is cry baby hard core players, just give them an a extreme mode play style maybe that will shut them up
 

[cekivi]

2 hours ago, nicko said:

I am sprinting every time I get a chance to get the 25% fewer calories bonus - thanks. any perks == awesome if you ask me.

I think the issue is cry baby hard core players, just give them an a extreme mode play style maybe that will shut them up
 

Just like the hardcore players shouldn't dismiss Pilgrim players the reverse is also true. One of the difficulties of balancing for a player base with a really broad range of preferred play styles. As I keep saying, I like the feats that make the game less tedious but I don't like the ones that make the experience easier.

[nicko]

then what are the ones that you think make the experience easier?  sprinting? or other?

[cekivi]

@nicko: the only feat I'm completely against is cold fusion where you get the permanent +3 C boost. To me, that just seems way too powerful and even with basic clothing most days won't be cold enough to deter you from going outside or taking risks. Not to mention I don't see a way to narratively justify it. The other feats could use some tuning and they do make the game easier but, for instance, when I've already seen all a map has to offer a bonus for sprinting to the next place I want to explore seems more like a feature than a detriment.

Although, admittedly, that feat should need to be unlocked each game but with a very low bar (i.e. survive 20 days or sprint 5 km). Then it would be "endurance training" for your character.

[continuity]

On 7/3/2016 at 8:08 PM, Ohbal said:

I think all experienced players on this forum agree on the game being way too easy once you get to know what to do. I however don't have a clue about what is the average survival of a new player, or the average survival of TLD player base, so who knows what's going on out there. 

I'm a new player, so maybe I can help out there, I just started playing a few days ago on the middle difficulty.  My first attempt I died on around day 4, my second attempt is still going at around day 38, i'm finding it very easy at this point and i'm basically down to setting myself challenges as the game itself is trivial.  

[Ruruwawa]

On 7/7/2016 at 3:08 PM, Patrick Carlson said:

Thanks everyone for your continued, thoughtful feedback in this thread. One question I have for those of you concerned about the perceived difficulty of survival: Do you find yourself altering your approach to the game in response to the Skills and Feats? Do the (potential) bonuses they afford you change how you explore the Sandbox?

The biggest  playstyle change for me with respect to skills is how I spent my daylight hours, since both crafting and research have to be crammed into daytime now.  I'm doing more outdoor chores at night as a result.  (I like it!  #tradeoffs)

As I rank up my skills, especially the ones related to putting food in my belly (carcasses, cooking and fire), I find I need much less work to survive.  Individually these skills have pretty hefty bonuses, all three ranked up makes the game feel about half as difficult.  I like the feeling of progression, but we need some harder content to really take advantage of the bonuses.

For feats, I'm playing less to avoid earning them.   The tasks for the feats are pretty cool, but I don't want the bonuses -- unless there is harder content that requires them.  (I would have been fine with these being achievements.)  

The change in Penitent Scholar that has changed my gameplay most is the Pocket Cabin, aka snow shelter.  I no longer carry a bedroll, just a few cloth, since the pocket cabin is a warm bed and a windbreak.  The only planning I do at all for blizzards now is to note animal pathing so I can plop it down somewhere safe-ish and enjoy a cozy sleep right through the blizzard.

I think this needs a little balancing.  My suggestion would be to make it vulnerable to wind damage, esp during blizzards, so that we'd have to get out and repair it every couple hours or lose our shelter.  If you happened to have Hypothermia this would reset the timer too, and add another planning / tradoff factor for snow shelter.

[Drifter Man]

On 7/7/2016 at 11:08 PM, Patrick Carlson said:

Thanks everyone for your continued, thoughtful feedback in this thread. One question I have for those of you concerned about the perceived difficulty of survival: Do you find yourself altering your approach to the game in response to the Skills and Feats? Do the (potential) bonuses they afford you change how you explore the Sandbox?

No, I'm playing the same way as before, I'm only less active because I need to do less in order to survive.

[ShawnB]

I'm currently on a play through now where I'm trying to keep my indoor hour count at 0. I really feel skills are a big deal with this player challenge, which I really like. However I don't have any time to research books I find because survival is so desperate all the time. 

Cooking, Harvesting and Fire skills are a great help. I don't really get the firearm skill. By this time this is maxed out I can't imagine there will be much ammo left. Either ammo crafting needs to be a late game thing or this skill should transfer to the bow.

[stray_cur]

The most positive difference with the latest update(s?) to me now (ML/Stalker), at least early game, is that it seems there is less deers killed for you by wolves, both less opportunities to chase them into wolves, and less of them just lying around (aside from those pre-placed carcasses that are always there to start).

Is this just an anomaly of my latest playthrough, or is this an actual adjustment?  -- If the latter, big thumbs up!  I hardly had to think about gun / bow hunting before -- just go outside and look for a dead or chaseable-into-a-wolf deer,, but now it looks like I might have to do it myself,, which is much better / more realistic / difficult.  I've been having to live off fish for the past few days (for lack of a shotgun and yet to be made bow),, which is new and interesting.

And as an aside, it's a real immersion breaker for me to self-impose challenges, like 0 hours indoors, etc - so it's neat to have 'reality' impose them for you -- for example, despite looking in all the usual places I haven't found the shotgun (much preferable to choosing not to use it),, or another pair of leather shoes to repair the deteriorating ones I have -- I'll soon be the only barefooted fisherman on Mystery Lake -- this is good.  

Though these are just early game issues I'm having, they are really drawing out the fun and challenge of getting 'set-up' - so they are welcome, and seemingly new?

[ShawnB]

Animal behaviour has Definately improved. Wolf and deer herds move around, deer avoid wolves if you try to herd them into wolves sometimes. Plenty of room for improvement but great addition.

As for immersion, a little imagination can go a long way. Sandbox type games are best when you are a little imaginative and creative and that is the only reason I continue to play this game at this time.

 

[Ohbal]

On 7/7/2016 at 11:08 PM, Patrick Carlson said:

Thanks everyone for your continued, thoughtful feedback in this thread. One question I have for those of you concerned about the perceived difficulty of survival: Do you find yourself altering your approach to the game in response to the Skills and Feats? Do the (potential) bonuses they afford you change how you explore the Sandbox?

Not really. I keep playing the same way. Now, as I have mentioned before, if in the end the feats cannot be disabled, it would be an issue. I would probably delete my profile when I get some of them to keep the game feeling as it should be (hard!!!). 

My personal advice when thinking about any new mechanic, would be to make sure they have a downside. The last update did nothing to increase the game difficulty, rather the contrary: it made it easier. We now have the option to get different bonuses for harvesting, cooking, fire making, and aiming. We could also get perma-bonus if we get the feats. We can also sleep in any place of the map with the improvised shelter... but there is nothing in this udpdate that would make the experience harder, thus the game experience just got easier overall.  

[TSmith]

I just typed more than I had in a month and it didnt post so here is my shortened bit of feed back

Feats should be Steam Achievements, and or a player should be able to toggle them on or off. Cold Fusion and Efficient Machine would make the start of a run much easier .

The Rifle skill tree is the only one that makes anywhere close to 100% sense. A 303 Enfield is a deadly round in the hands of a skilled hunter, marksmen or soldier. If a player reaches level 5 on the rifle skills, he has earned it.

The cooking skill tree. Big drawn out threads on the Steam forums about the parasites. I was right in the middle of it, against it all the way. Truth is there are a few cases of parasites a year, mainly, if not all from under cooked meat. A player reaches level 5 cooking, he has earned the right , has the skill to cook and eat, without risk of parasites any meat in the game. But i would not go as far as to say he should be able to eat 2% canned milk, or never get food poisoning from 70 % or less cooked meat,

The rest of the skills made the game easier, because you added calories to the cooked meat, added burn time to the fire, and reduced the time it took to cook the meat, which has more calories already?

Yes a player should gain skills as he goes each sandbox, but take for example, should he be able to start a fire 95% of the time without tinder?  No way, you have to have tinder to effect a fire. Should a player be able to "speed up" the carcass harvesting time? Yes, but just because he has harvested X amount of carcasses should he be able to buzzsaw his way through a carcasses that has been in the deep freezer with his bare hands? No, or should he be able to smash a can without loosing any content?

 

The 2 Things that make sense are

Keep the rifle as is, the player earned the right to use it to more of its capabilities. Keep the parasite elimination, if a player has cooked that much meat to reach level 5, he should know how to properly cook meat. The response from you guys on the Steam forums was there was a few cases of parasites each year. Player reaches level 5, he has earned the right to eat any animal he harvests. I have reached level 5 cooking twice, took right at 100 days both times

Skills that have not been added that make sense, at least to me.  Tool Sharpening, bow skills ( --Crouching shot? hold the draw longer with less sway? A little more range? A little more stealth? wind plays a role in the animal detecting you? --) ) and some advanced clothing crafting after you level up in these skills. The advanced clothing could "replace" the cold fusion and efficient machine if you decide to make them Steam Achievements. 

[Phink3113]

On 7/7/2016 at 5:08 PM, Patrick Carlson said:

Thanks everyone for your continued, thoughtful feedback in this thread. One question I have for those of you concerned about the perceived difficulty of survival: Do you find yourself altering your approach to the game in response to the Skills and Feats? Do the (potential) bonuses they afford you change how you explore the Sandbox?

I find myself taking a nice jog before I head off to bed. Besides that I have not changed my playstyle.

[Wayfarer]

I like the update.

• Character skills make sense, I think it's good.  As much as developers might be irked by their work being disregarded/disabled, an option to enable Skills (or perhaps more importantly, Feats) may work well for quite a lot of players who don't want or need more help...?
  • I like the idea, I think it should be in, it's now to balance and add to. Outside of personally learning things, there's an obvious progression within the game.  Player skill and knowledge is implied and guaranteed.  And has perhaps a shorter shelf-life where the play-field is generally fixed each time.  When the challenge is built on an emphasis of player learning is, once you know how to play, what to do and what not to do, the challenge is gone.  That's the problem a lot of players have, yeah?
• New Challenges are cool.  I have yet to complete any...I was doing pretty well with Nomad until I met a bear coming the opposite direction out of the fog, in a fairly enclosed area.  And then decided to cockily go for revenge.
  • Nomad gives me more incentive than a simple Sandbox.  Again, it's something in-game to see ticked off or whatever.  Though "ticking it off because it's on the list" is emptier than something instigating the nomadic approach.  Someone mentions that on the first page I think.  How that could work, I don't know...maybe lots of wolves start hanging around after the 3 days haha I dunno.
• Feats, again, yep.  A nice thing to achieve for playing for a long time.  Agreed it "makes it easy" later, but really, if you're into 500+ days of your game, how difficult is it anyway?  You know what you're doing, I figure animals respawn and arrows can be remade.  Fire ignition might be tricky when all the matches and strikers are gone though..  Excluding resource depletion you're probably only going to die because you do something silly and perhaps on purpose for fun heh

Seems the biggest challenge for this game to face is the same all the Sandboxes have.  What to do when you've effectively won.  Same thing as when you've beaten Jenova or Diablo, start again or do something else   As far as a testing platform goes, it's pretty sweet ;).

[Greenglades]

On 7/7/2016 at 2:08 PM, Patrick Carlson said:

Thanks everyone for your continued, thoughtful feedback in this thread. One question I have for those of you concerned about the perceived difficulty of survival: Do you find yourself altering your approach to the game in response to the Skills and Feats? Do the (potential) bonuses they afford you change how you explore the Sandbox?

 

 

My gameplay has changed. 

With the introduction of intestinal parasites, Wolf and/or bear meat would be a desperation food, weighing the chance of parasite infection with the total amount of antibiotics I have saved up. Now every wolf or bear I kill I always harvest them (to help increase the harvest skill). I always cook them (to help increase the cooking skill) and now I always save the meat ... because once you hit cooking skill 5 you can eat it once it is not ruined. That is the major problem with cooking skill 5 - never get food poisoning. I used to fear the 50% sardine tin and skeptically look at the 40% granola bar. Now once at skill 5 no matter what the condition of food is, it is safe. My current game on stalker mode I have over 200kg of stored meat not counting the fishing cabin with a floor littered with fish. No intestinal parasites brings bear and wolf meat back into the mix and no food poisoning lets us horde food. When food is taken out of the survival experience, that is a huge change.

I sprint every so often as well and until I did receive cold fusion, I would spend most of my time in snow shelters - Cooking, fixing clothing etc... to maximize time outside