Penitent Scholar - Early Feedback

[cekivi]

Afternoon All.

Just some early feedback on the Penitent Scholar Update. For instance, the following are awesome:

• The new challenges are excellent! I highly recommend everyone try them!
• Skills make for an interesting twist to the game. Hopefully, a future update will give starting characters a minor boost in one or two skills to give them some character (as opposed to starting with a blank slate)
• Feats as a whole are good and reward long term gameplay

The only feat I'm not a huge fan of is Cold Fusion. It's a neat concept (permanent +2C warmth bonus) but the challenge is that the feat would drastically change the game's difficulty once you achieved it. The other feats make the repetitive tasks of long term players easier and are more quality of play versus difficulty focus. As a consequence, I don't know if Cold Fusion will be appreciated since it will make the game easier for marathon players some of whom already complain about the game being too easy.

As a whole, an amazing update

[Scyzara]

I very much like the idea of a skill progression system and researchable books in general and am pretty happy with their current implementation overall. However, some of the skill boni are just too extreme for my taste as they make the game way easier than before (e.g. cooking 5 removing the risk of parasites/food poisoning and giving each food item 25% more calories). 

I haven't reached lvl 5 in all skill trees yet, but once I have, I'll comment on them in more detail. As for now, I'm completely fine with the boni from ice fishing, carcass harvesting and rifle skill (I'm lvl 3 in all of them atm). I also like the firestarting boni up to lvl 4, really curious what lvl 5 will bring. 

As for the feats... please give us an option to disable them. As @cekivi has mentioned, some of them (and I personally don't think it's just cold fusion, but definitely also efficient machine, fire starter and snow walker) make the game considerably easier and we players currently have no way at all to prevent this "unwanted" difficulty drop - except not to play longer games.

I understand that the HL team wants to give players an overall goal to work on in the long run (that doesn't fail automatically if they die within a particular game), but I for one would very much welcome it if I had the choice to disable the feats. 

[Boston123]

I would remove the calorie bonus from cooking food (cooking food in real life almost always lowers the available calories and nutrients), but I totally think that the level of parasite infection chance should decrease with skill. 

Or, alternatively, each level of cooking skill unlocks different methods of cooking, that in turn influence the parasite risk and caloric content. Each method would take longer, and, depending on difficulty level, require different tools and materials (water, bone marrow, fat, etc)

(In no particular order)

Roasting

Grilling

Frying

Boiling (making soup, my favorite)

And, at level 5, you unlock the ability to preserve food by smoking or drying.

Liven things up, as opposed to " MORE CALORIES"

[Drifter Man]

I like the new update, too, and am excited about it.

The skills and feats give rewards for long-term gameplay, something people had been calling for. As @cekivi said, there is a downside that the game will become even easier for veteran players. The bonuses may have to be adjusted, but it's a long way for me to judge this - in my 775-day old sandbox I was given a firestarting skill of 5 but everything else is at 1.

The new shelter is a great idea but may need some tweaking. I've just survived a 6-hour blizzard inside one (right after I had built it) and it offers a stable air temperature of -5°C. I expected it would work more like a cave (with variable temperature inside). After the blizzard the shelter was at 90% and required just one stick and 3 minutes to repair. It may be too "overpowered".

[KD7BCH]

Shouldn't this "feat skill" of cold fusion be something you could activate for a set time instead of a constant? You know something like you will yourself to not face the cold. Because I agree a 4C boost against weather which could be gotten in a few hundred days makes the later game too easy by too much.

[Vinceofpyrenees]

7 hours ago, Boston123 said:

I would remove the calorie bonus from cooking food (cooking food in real life almost always lowers the available calories and nutrients), but I totally think that the level of parasite infection chance should decrease with skill. 

Or, alternatively, each level of cooking skill unlocks different methods of cooking, that in turn influence the parasite risk and caloric content. Each method would take longer, and, depending on difficulty level, require different tools and materials (water, bone marrow, fat, etc)

(In no particular order)

Roasting

Grilling

Frying

Boiling (making soup, my favorite)

And, at level 5, you unlock the ability to preserve food by smoking or drying.

Liven things up, as opposed to " MORE CALORIES"

I'm not a fan of bonus calories too, it's kind of things with find in common role play video games. 

[Dirmagnos]

Like the skills, altho descriptions could use some work, like what "2 condition per repair action" even means ?

Feats are also nice, bring more of them. Will probably take me several games(since i never play past 100-150 days since i get bored and there is nothing left to do), but its a good idea to have a long-term goal.

Dislike the books. Since they are implemented in exact manner i hoped they wont be - by simply giving a flat skill boost upon reading them. Plus player can find several copies of the same book, making their value go down even more, since their effect is not cumulative. Bug, fixed on game restart.

Love the feature that cant craft/repair in the dark. Unfortunately feature was not accompanied by expanded light source, like candles, devaluating it.

Like the feature that parts from breaking down items go directly into inventory, not fall on the floor. But it will take a looong time to get over reflex of looking at the floor every time i break a bench.

Not really sure about new fonts. They seem to make everything bigger, dont like it much.

Also, there is no real reason for not getting calories bonus from cooking skill, as player learns new and more efficient ways to process food. And in real life cooking lowers amount of calories, but cooked food is also easier to process by digestion system(unless its overcooked), making end result the same. Dont like idea of locking specific abilities/mechanics behind skill barrier, doesnt make sense.\

Not sure if intentional or bug, but rabbits caught by snares can be harvested without using tools. Bug, fixed on game restart.

[Ohbal]

I'll add my two cents here:

- Snow Shelter: I think its clearly OP. I'd make it consume much more resources... and definetely for this we should need a shovel, and some short of ropes or strings, handmade or not. How are we building that structure so easily in such harsh conditions without proper equipment? As an experiment for the feature, I'd say is nice but it needs re-balance. Something built in 45 minutes, with 10 sticks and three pieces of cloth cannot give that much protection for such a long time. 

- Skills: they seem nice, but I need further testing. Can't see any other issue except the ones already flagged about cooking: adding more calories to the food feels rather gamey. I'm ok with the cooking skill removing the chance of parasites, although I would prefer if the solution for avoiding them were based on the player actively and not passively doing something different while cooking: boiling (extra water) or cooking the meat at high temperatures (extra hard wood / coal), for example. 

- Feats: Nice concept. I need further testing, but I'd definetely allow them to be disabled if the player desires to have the vanilla experience. 

- Books: Like them, but they get old too easily. 5 hours of reading also seems a bit low. How about making books the way to learn to do some things like the snow shelter (surviving in the wild), the snares (hunting), a fish line (fishing) etc?  

Expanded feedback
I've already found 10 and 25 hours books, so part of my initial argument was flawed. Anyway, I'm not completely convinced by the mechanic and I still think it would be better to have the books teach you new skills, rather than just giving you experience. The only use I see for them now (and it could very well be the intended design) is to fill the early hours in the day, when its too cold outside, and to pass a blizzard. 

Also, and I'm not sure if this is a bug, you can read the same book for the same experience. And I do not mean that you can read twice the same book, but if you have two (or three, or four...) editions of the same book, each of them will give you experience. I think only one edition per book should be useful. 

- Nomad challenge: haven't tried it yet as I really see no point in the challenge itself, being nomadic my preferred playstile. 

- Whiteout: great concept, but way too easy. The hardest thing to find were the bullets, as I haven't seen more than one at a time. And I got them on day 7 (and I lost one day making arrowheads... I can't help myself when I go to desolation point). Make the resources harder to obtain.... its a challenge after all, right?

- First pass on the Almanac: awesome! Hope that, somehow, the whiteout mechanic open its way to the sandbox gameplay this way. 

- The rest of the gameplay changes are great (not being able to craft / repair in the dark; stamina vs fatigue when brandishing; harvested materials transferred to backpack, etc)

Overall, a great update! Thanks, Hinterland  

[Boston123]

I don't know about you, but snow shelters are absurdly easy to make, and they really are that effective.. Take snow, pile it up, done. 

I've built a snow shelter with about 10 minutes of work. You dig into the side of a snowdrift and smooth out the inside.

[cekivi]

@Boston123: Agree that snow caves are easy to make but they seem a little too beneficial for balancing purposes. Locking the temperature to behave like an outdoor cave or still requiring a bedroll (you can't sleep on snow afterall) may both be good for balancing.

[Boston123]

Just now, cekivi said:

@Boston123: Agree that snow caves are easy to make but they seem a little too beneficial for balancing purposes. Locking the temperature to behave like an outdoor cave or still requiring a bedroll (you can't sleep on snow afterall) may both be good for balancing.

The temperature in a snow cave, both from what I have seen in-game and in real life, will generally not rise about freezing. 

Also, I am pretty sure you get the bonus from using your bedroll automatically, both in snow shelters and when sleeping in cars.

[Rusty_Old_F250]

On 6/23/2016 at 6:30 PM, cekivi said:

The only feat I'm not a huge fan of is Cold Fusion. It's a neat concept (permanent +2C warmth bonus) but the challenge is that the feat would drastically change the game's difficulty once you achieved it. The other feats make the repetitive tasks of long term players easier and are more quality of play versus difficulty focus. As a consequence, I don't know if Cold Fusion will be appreciated since it will make the game easier for marathon players some of whom already complain about the game being too easy.

As a whole, an amazing update

I agree completely, if anything, I'd like to make it colder, hah!

Sam

[sierra 117]

I started a seperate post along the same lines as this discussion,just thought I'd pop it in here to get some more opinions.

 

On ‎23‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 1:27 PM, sierra 117 said:

First off let me just say I'm loving the new skills and update in general cant wait to camp out in my snow shelter locked and loaded.

My main focus here is to discuss the feats system, I would like to get other peoples thoughts on this.

See I understand that HL want to add a feeling of progression/accomplishment the more we play, however IMO having these skills/ unlocks crossover from each survivor seems too. Unrealistic. But more importantly in the long run too easy.

So I think maybe if the requirements are lowered to suit and locked to each survivor, then these feats will serve a much better purpose to really enhance the enjoyment of the game with each run and also add to the long term gameplay.

because when we think about It yes it will take a long time to unlock some of these feats [currently] but once they're done the game I permanently easier. No matter how we play.

whereas when locked to each play you have these goals to work to each time . And even at say 100or so dayss when things start getting samey/boring. Or we have looted most places we would still have some goals/objectives, to keep us busy/active.

ergo solving issues of what to do to avoid cabin fever etc.

And if the devs really want to give us thing to unlock between characters then the collectables on sandbox is wide open .

It would be less game breaking if I could craft/find new items in regions after starting 1000 fires between characters for instance.

Anyway, let me know what you guys think

 

[CarolinaSantAngelo]

On 23/6/2016 at 9:19 AM, Drifter Man said:

I like the new update, too, and am excited about it.

The skills and feats give rewards for long-term gameplay, something people had been calling for. As @cekivi said, there is a downside that the game will become even easier for veteran players. The bonuses may have to be adjusted, but it's a long way for me to judge this - in my 775-day old sandbox I was given a firestarting skill of 5 but everything else is at 1.

The new shelter is a great idea but may need some tweaking. I've just survived a 6-hour blizzard inside one (right after I had built it) and it offers a stable air temperature of -5°C. I expected it would work more like a cave (with variable temperature inside). After the blizzard the shelter was at 90% and required just one stick and 3 minutes to repair. It may be too "overpowered".

I was thinking the same, I think the shelter should protect you from the wind and have a boost of temperature, but like a cave, it should be possible for you to die in it if you don't have enough clothes and sleeping bag to keep you in +0C. Because as I have tested and as you said, it's a little way too overpowered and it's basically like bringing along a cabin with you. They should be easy to do, as they are, but don't make them a house on demand. Doing the 3 nights outside thing is really easy with it. 

 

[cekivi]

On 2016-06-24 at 5:20 PM, Boston123 said:

The temperature in a snow cave, both from what I have seen in-game and in real life, will generally not rise about freezing. 

Also, I am pretty sure you get the bonus from using your bedroll automatically, both in snow shelters and when sleeping in cars.

In real life, sure, that is exactly how snow caves work. No argument there. However, as @CarolinaSantAngelo pointed out at the moment they serve as portable cabins. That's not a bad thing but variable interior temperatures would be a great way to prevent them from being abused. Otherwise, all the work on cabin fever is rather moot if I can hibernate in my snow cave permanently.

Essentially, I think in this case good gameplay should trump realism.

[Ohbal]

On 23/6/2016 at 9:19 AM, Scyzara said:

I also like the firestarting boni up to lvl 4, really curious what lvl 5 will bring. 

Well, here you have, Its quite a massive bonus. 

 

[sarudak]

Wow... That seems like it might be a little much. I think the biggest thing that bugs me the most though is that starting fires without tinder becomes just as easy as starting them with tinder making tinder completely and utterly worthless...

[cekivi]

2 minutes ago, sarudak said:

Wow... That seems like it might be a little much. I think the biggest thing that bugs me the most though is that starting fires without tinder becomes just as easy as starting them with tinder making tinder completely and utterly worthless...

Yeah. This has bugged me to. Not to mention it's usually next to impossible to light a fire directly from "fuel" wood. I'm assuming a master fire starter knows this and is making tinder/kindling before starting the fire (hence why they have such a high percent lighting chance)? Still, it would be better as far as mechanics are concerned to keep tinder useful. Otherwise a lot of design that went into how to make and use tinder no longer is needed.

[ShawnB]

My general thoughts on the update...The latest update was ok but far from great. It didn't meet my expectations. The general issue I have with this game is that long term survival is too easy and predictable, therefore boring. Nothing in the update addressed this.

 

But anyway, some quick points on specific items of the latest update. Many of these points have already been identified by others, I just wanted to compile my own thoughts and reiterate these issues.

 

-Snow Shelter: Good addition, but there are plenty of good shelters all over the current regions. I hope new regions have no shelters so I actually need to build a snow shelter.

-Skills/Research: Good addition, but the game needs to become progressively more difficult to make these skills significant. Long term survival is too easy and these skills just make it easier. You should also have to research certain items before you can craft them.

-Feats: I don't think these buffs should be applied to all games. Make the requirements easier and not transferable between games. Again, needs to be balanced by making long term survival more difficult.

-Whiteout Challenge: Great idea but I was very disappointed by the execution. Let us endure the storm! Don't give us a laundry list of items to collect, let the player decide what they need. Make the storm long so we can really test ourselves.

-Nomad: I don't feel any urge to play this. If you want nomads change the environment to force nomadic behaviour. Don't just give us a location visit list.

-Weather almanac: Seems a little gimmicky and unnecessary. I don't see how this would fit into Sandbox or story mode well. Doesn't seem realistic either.

 

Everything else was a good change and I appreciate the work Devs are putting into this game!

[stray_cur]

Further exaggerates game's main problem:  Starts hard and interesting then pretty quickly drifts into an uncompelling purgatory.

Seems devs are doing things for the sake of doing things now.

[cekivi]

1 hour ago, stray_cur said:

Further exaggerates game's main problem:  Starts hard and interesting then pretty quickly drifts into an uncompelling purgatory.

Seems devs are doing things for the sake of doing things now.

That's a bit harsh. The sandbox was always intended as a test bed for the story mode. Consequently some really game breaking things get introduced by accident because, at the end of the day, the sandbox is still a testing platform. Hopefully, once all the mechanics/animals/items the dev team wants in the game have been implemented then the focus can turn to balance, long term play and new maps again.

[Drifter Man]

It is definitely a harsh assessment. It's a big change in the game and no one can expect that the result will be perfect right at the first try. Now that the skills system is in, it is time to tweak the parameters to make the later game (day 50+) more challenging.

In my current situation (Harvesting skill 2, Cooking 3, Firestarting 5) the bonuses make the game 14% easier in terms of the amount of meat that I need to harvest and 44% easier in terms of the amount of firewood I need to gather, when compared to Tireless Menace. Making wildlife less abundant or harder to catch could balance this. The same applies to firewood.

Since my suggestion could also make the first days of the sandbox a lot more difficult, we can compensate by having more food and firewood ready on the map to be found by newly arriving survivors.

[ShawnB]

Making the end game harder only fixes half the problem. It also needs to be more unpredictable. I really hope NPCs, weather events, animal behaviour and aurora effects address this.

This game is awesome, even as is, but it has so much more potential.

[stray_cur]

If it weren't so great in every other way, I wouldn't give a care,, but one cannot stress strongly enough or be too harsh on the fact that there is something wrong, to the point of unplayability (for me) when a 'survival' game has little challenge in surviving the first few days and no challenge beyond that, on the hardest difficulty.

This is feedback and concern.

And story mode is just a few hours of gameplay... Sandbox is where it's at, I think.

[vimrich]

Need more focus on making the beginning to mid game easier and the end game harder.  Some specifics:

1. Bunker tips - by the time I find a bunker, I basically don't need it, because they are in otherwise useless locations. to take the risk to hike up to one I have enough surplus food and good clothing already. I suggest adding maps, notes or codes of some sort that you can find to at least suggest there might be something in a spot if you go look. 

2. Skills - books help with skills early, more of this sort of thing! Starting skills (both + and -) per character should help, also give me a reason to pick one vs other character.

3. Food/starts - more early food, but at much lower quality. For new players that don't know the map, just finding someplace by day 1 nightfall is a challenge, they'll be near dead, but at least by the time they find that first building they'd have enough food to sit there for a couple days and heal up. For better players, they'll know where to go, but the food would be degraded in other locations by the time they get to them. Better players forget how hard a new map is.