discussion Weapons+Combat mechanics Suggestions/Discussions (PART 2) (POLL)

[alone sniper]

On 6/22/2016 at 8:19 PM, Docterrok said:

dude! RE5 is a great example! i prefer RE4, but i'm more horror, less action, but you make an excellent point! continue? I need to hear more examples.

and a like the god of war series combat mode. (when you fight with bosses and you should press a key to kill it.)

[Docterrok]

4 minutes ago, Wastelander said:

Okay, I have compiled a list of present and possible melee-weapons and how they could be used in a fight human vs. human:

• Unarmed - should be self-explanatory. Low damage, will result in a struggle.
• Log - Basic club, useless in struggle but can crack some bones.
• Crowbar - Very slow swing speed, high damage, high stamina use. However, due to it's heavy weight and it's length, it's easy to disarm you.
• Hatchet - Medium swing speed, extremely high damage, can be taken from you quite easily.
• Knife - Now these don't work like in CoD. A single stab or slice will very rarely kill someone. Most knife fights end up with one person being stabbed and sliced dozens of times - I'll link a video after this. However, while the damage is rather small, the knife is extremely fast, extremely versatile especially if you can switch your knife hand quickly and without your opponent noticing, and you're less likely to be disarmed.
• Revolver - the good ol' pistol-whip. Does some damage but is more of a last-resort things. Can be taken from you pretty easily.
• Rifle - a favored melee-weapon in the trenches of WW1, even without a bayonet a heavy rifle can do some damage if handled correctly, but can also be taken from you relatively simply.
• Storm lantern - using this to give someone a good whack on the head would immediately break the lantern, but can be a last resort if surprised in a dark area. The handle actually makes this similar to a flail if handled correctly! (Source: Someone hit me with one once >_>)
• Torch/Brand - rather useless. They're light and their only source of damage would be the fire which would have to be in contact with the enemy for several seconds, so we can ignore those.

Now I do understand that programming and animating movements and struggles for all of those would be quite a feat, so maybe the modding community will help us out with this in the future (the firearms and the storm lantern have no free keys to use in melee anyway), but I listed those anyway. Discuss.

hmm, the log idea seems a bit strange, the logs are in your bag, I think that every fight should be a struggle. Like, as mentioned on part one, for example, if you have a revolver, you struggle to put it underneath attackers chin, then it goes black when you pull the trigger. If he has one, you struggle to keep the barrel away from your face. I will make a refined list of what I think would be more fitting. 

[Wastelander]

How knives are used in combat. (Warning, harsh language!)

What a hatchet can do to a ballistic skull (warning, loads of artificial blood in here!)

 

[Docterrok]

1 minute ago, alone sniper said:

and a like the god of war series combat mode. (when you fight with bosses and you should press a key to kill it.)

well, I'm for struggles similar to that with wolves. But this needs to be discussed further.

[alone sniper]

On 6/22/2016 at 8:22 PM, Wastelander said:

• Unarmed - should be self-explanatory. Low damage, will result in a struggle.
• Log - Basic club, useless in struggle but can crack some bones.
• Crowbar - Very slow swing speed, high damage, high stamina use. However, due to it's heavy weight and it's length, it's easy to disarm you.
• Hatchet - Medium swing speed, extremely high damage, can be taken from you quite easily.
• Knife - Now these don't work like in CoD. A single stab or slice will very rarely kill someone. Most knife fights end up with one person being stabbed and sliced dozens of times - I'll link a video after this. However, while the damage is rather small, the knife is extremely fast, extremely versatile especially if you can switch your knife hand quickly and without your opponent noticing, and you're less likely to be disarmed.
• Revolver - the good ol' pistol-whip. Does some damage but is more of a last-resort things. Can be taken from you pretty easily.
• Rifle - a favored melee-weapon in the trenches of WW1, even without a bayonet a heavy rifle can do some damage if handled correctly, but can also be taken from you relatively simply.
• Storm lantern - using this to give someone a good whack on the head would immediately break the lantern, but can be a last resort if surprised in a dark area. The handle actually makes this similar to a flail if handled correctly! (Source: Someone hit me with one once >_>)
• Torch/Brand - rather useless. They're light and their only source of damage would be the fire which would have to be in contact with the enemy for several seconds, so we can ignore those.

That is awesome!

[Wastelander]

3 minutes ago, alone sniper said:

and a like the god of war series combat mode. (when you fight with bosses and you should press a key to kill it.)

Personally, I find QTEs to be pretty immersion breaking, but that's just my personal taste.

3 minutes ago, Docterrok said:

hmm, the log idea seems a bit strange, the logs are in your bag, I think that every fight should be a struggle. Like, as mentioned on part one, for example, if you have a revolver, you struggle to put it underneath attackers chin, then it goes black when you pull the trigger. If he has one, you struggle to keep the barrel away from your face. I will make a refined list of what I think would be more fitting. 

True. Maybe we should limit that list to things you can actually hold in your hands.

[alone sniper]

How about shooting a Jerry Can or something that NPCs have? (cause them to burn)
or throw them to fire or something like this?

[Docterrok]

10 minutes ago, Wastelander said:

True. Maybe we should limit that list to things you can actually hold in your hands.

My thought exactly. Ok, for the sake of convenience, I will break the list up in chunks to discuss it more in depth.

Revolver, Trigger pull struggle. goes black, is a killmove, no choices here.

Rifle, use it similar to a bar to keep the enemy off you, the rifle is against attackers chest.

knife, attempt to stab in shoulder if on bottom, push against neck if on top.

hatchet, again, a shoulder hit, if on top, killinging blow to head, again killmove. no choices. maybe interspersed in combat, you can yell at them to yield, which may or may not make them do so. but certain weapon can honestly only do killmoves. but giving them chance of mercy would be awesome. 

Discuss

[Wastelander]

Actually, the revolver shouldn't be killmove only - I don't know how this could be done with the controls, but basically you should be able to decide if you pull the trigger or just whack them on the head.

[Docterrok]

I think the solution is using your words. Interspersed in fighting, i mean, your character even talks to the wolves as your being attacked. Tell them to yield or scream at them to stop. this is an in depth discussion man!

[Wastelander]

Just now, Docterrok said:

I think the solution is using your words. Interspersed in fighting, i mean, your character even talks to the wolves as your being attacked. Tell them to yield or scream at them to stop. this is an in depth discussion man!

Sorry, I think I need break had a bad night's sleep, tons of uni stuff to keep up on and all that jazz...

I like the idea though.

[Docterrok]

7 minutes ago, alone sniper said:

How about shooting a Jerry Can or something that NPCs have? (cause them to burn)
or throw them to fire or something like this?

That seems a bit graphic, and it would be damn hard to code well enough. This isn't "Postal 2" It may be cold, but you can warm them up better ways! 

[Docterrok]

Just now, Wastelander said:

Sorry, I think I need break had a bad night's sleep, tons of uni stuff to keep up on and all that jazz...

I like the idea though.

kk, see you in a bit.

[Dirmagnos]

5 hours ago, Wastelander said:

Looting - yes. Cannibalism - no. This was discussed countless times, and the inclusion of such an act would both destroy the T-rating of the game Hinterland wants to keep AND raise a bunch of moral questions - Fallout got away with it because Fallout doesn't take itself seriously and it was more of a joke anyway. Realistically, there are a bunch of psychological failsafes in the brain that prevent us from eating (and actually killing, too) people because we're herd animals. Only in the most dire of situations have normal people eaten others, in most cases nowadays there's a mental illness/really sick fetish in play.

Rating, probably yes. And Fallout didnt get away with it, its rated M to begin with.

There are no brain failsafes, there is just social mental conditioning telling ppl that cannibalism is bad. Thats all. Its not even illegal in most countries. And question of mental illness in cannibalism cases is highly debatable, some are, others, well, not so much.

[Docterrok]

On June 22, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Dirmagnos said:

Rating, probably yes. And Fallout didnt get away with it, its rated M to begin with.

There are no brain failsafes, there is just social mental conditioning telling ppl that cannibalism is bad. Thats all. Its not even illegal in most countries. And question of mental illness in cannibalism cases is highly debatable, some are, others, well, not so much.

I am half convinced you've eaten people meat...

[Dirmagnos]

5 hours ago, Docterrok said:

I am half convinced you've eaten people meat...

Would you like to discuss it further ? I can give you a meeting address near old butchery. As long as you dont tell/write/mention anything about it to any1. You dont happen to have a bonesaw by chance, mines broke ? 8)

 

But generally i find it interesting to dissect social constructs and myths. How things actually are, without all the bs blanket on top of them.

[Boston123]

Why are we going to use ranged weapons up close? The whole "point" of firearms is that they fire bullets from a distance.

As for NPC Combat, you shoot them and they die. Or, they shoot you and you die. Instadeath, no nonsense about "condition loss", etc. In the world with the same situations as TLD, you wouldn't be able to survive a bullet wound, full stop. Same thing with an arrow to the chest. Sure, an arrow won't kill you right away, but there is nothing you can do about the internal bleeding.

It does't have to be gory. Contrary to popular knowledge, in real life, people don't tend to explode in blood and gore when you shoot them. A puff of dust and vapor, not gouts of high-pressure blood spray. If a corpse is laying still for a while, then yes, blood will flow out and pool.

As for melee weapons, again, contrary to popular knowledge, unless one combatant is drastically more skilled, most hand-to-hand fights usually result in both parties getting heavily injured.

Also, smacking someone with a revolver is not something you want to do in real life. You can bend the barrel by doing so (causing jams, or just blowing up the barrel), and smacking someone in the head with a 2 lb amalgamation of wood and steel will kill them, or heavily injure them at the least.

[Docterrok]

4 hours ago, Boston123 said:

Why are we going to use ranged weapons up close? The whole "point" of firearms is that they fire bullets from a distance.

As for NPC Combat, you shoot them and they die. Or, they shoot you and you die. Instadeath, no nonsense about "condition loss", etc. In the world with the same situations as TLD, you wouldn't be able to survive a bullet wound, full stop. Same thing with an arrow to the chest. Sure, an arrow won't kill you right away, but there is nothing you can do about the internal bleeding.

It does't have to be gory. Contrary to popular knowledge, in real life, people don't tend to explode in blood and gore when you shoot them. A puff of dust and vapor, not gouts of high-pressure blood spray. If a corpse is laying still for a while, then yes, blood will flow out and pool.

As for melee weapons, again, contrary to popular knowledge, unless one combatant is drastically more skilled, most hand-to-hand fights usually result in both parties getting heavily injured.

Also, smacking someone with a revolver is not something you want to do in real life. You can bend the barrel by doing so (causing jams, or just blowing up the barrel), and smacking someone in the head with a 2 lb amalgamation of wood and steel will kill them, or heavily injure them at the least.

You make excellent points, however, melee combat, if you saw part 1, was discussed heavily, especially on the matter you are talking about, make sure to take a gander at it.

[Docterrok]

5 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Would you like to discuss it further ? I can give you a meeting address near old butchery. As long as you dont tell/write/mention anything about it to any1. You dont happen to have a bonesaw by chance, mines broke ? 8)

 

But generally i find it interesting to dissect social constructs and myths. How things actually are, without all the bs blanket on top of them.

That's a good thing to do actually, but don't eat human, you could get kuzu man! 

[Boston123]

8 hours ago, Docterrok said:

That's a good thing to do actually, but don't eat human, you could get kuzu man! 

No, actually, you won't.

Kuru is a disease highly localized to Papau New Guinea, and it only results when you eat the infected cerebral tissue of a human already infected with the disease. You don't just get it from eating random human meat. It was endemic to women and children because of the funerary cannibalism common to tribes in the area: men would eat the actual muscles, while women and children would get the brain and other not-so-good bits.

It also isn't an actual disease at all. It is a "prion" disease, which is the result of misfolded proteins, and is basically incurable.

It is also basically extinct, for all intents and purposes. The last person to have Kuru died in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease)

[Docterrok]

2 hours ago, Boston123 said:

No, actually, you won't.

Kuru is a disease highly localized to Papau New Guinea, and it only results when you eat the infected cerebral tissue of a human already infected with the disease. You don't just get it from eating random human meat. It was endemic to women and children because of the funerary cannibalism common to tribes in the area: men would eat the actual muscles, while women and children would get the brain and other not-so-good bits.

It also isn't an actual disease at all. It is a "prion" disease, which is the result of misfolded proteins, and is basically incurable.

It is also basically extinct, for all intents and purposes. The last person to have Kuru died in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease)

• Ok, why is everyone advocating eating people meat?!? 

[Crimson Foxx]

Yeah i really would like to not have human flesh in this game at all. I understand its a survival game but meh...eating dead people is just nasty. I think i would feel bad enough looting them if i did have to kill a person. 

If the game becomes moddable then maybe people can make a cannibal mode etc. But i hope Raph doesnt include an option to eat a human corpse.

I think if the melee is much like it is when fighting a wolf it will be good. Just enough control by hitting a button quick enough is fine with me. But like the poll suggests, be nice to get an option to come to a mutual bargaining or deal to not have to kill each other every time and if a struggle does occur, just a fisty-cuff fight maybe that leaves both exhausted to fight another day.

 

[Dirmagnos]

7 hours ago, Docterrok said:

• Ok, why is everyone advocating eating people meat?!? 

No1 is advocating anything, i just prefer that people would know what they are talking about. Only reason why eating long pig is considered bad has cultural, not physiological, roots.

Im not advocating for cannibalism in game, im fairly indifferent on that part. Sure it would give certain degree of realism, but would have significant distributional consequences as higher rating, maybe.

However, on  the other side, it wouldnt make much sense, since there is plenty of meat running around already. And considering that devs already screwed carnivores meat with those stupid parasites, even if cannibalism would be, by some miracle, implemented, then we would probably have another absurd features, like 20%  chance to contract deadly brain-to-mush disease by eating meat from any given corpse.

[Wastelander]

Quote

As for melee weapons, again, contrary to popular knowledge, unless one combatant is drastically more skilled, most hand-to-hand fights usually result in both parties getting heavily injured.

That is correct, which is why a melee-skill would reduce such injuries with experience.

[Docterrok]

That's a good point.