Tools, Weapons, & The Forge

[FrozenScorpion]

Please note that the following is my take on Tools, Weapons, and the Forging Mechanic. I know that there are a million and a half threads on this or that, or those; but please keep an open mind and a pinch of salt to what I have to share with any one who is willing to Stay Awhile and Listen.

First I will touch upon the Tools. Bone and Rock (Shale, Slate, Flint, etc...) are plentiful and very useful if knowledge of them is presented in the right way. Bone for instance can be fashioned into a needle or fish hook, can be used as a handle in place of wood in a knife (not an axe though). I wouldn't use it for an axe blade or knife blade though. Rocks of various types can all be used as a rudimentary form of blade for an axe, or a knife, or can be used as a blunt instrument such as a hammer. You can also fashion rudimentary tools out of metal such as cans when not melted down. Broken glass would work as a cutting implement if an end of a shard is covered in leather for instance, otherwise you have a large chance of getting cuts and lacerations on your hands.

For weapons, Bone and Rock both could be used as a rudimentary club either by itself or combined with other materials, or as a shiv against wolves. I often thought fashioning a club by lashing a hefty rock to a stout branch using cured gut would be a nice weapon to teach those wolves a lesson for not leaving me alone. Scraps of metal would work well as a weapon, especially against hostile people as they could get tetanus from rusted bits, not sure if a wolf could get tetanus. A stout branch with nails driven into it's business end is another idea I had. Arrows alone could have fire hardened tips, glass tips, bone tips, rock tips, metal tips, and even plastic tips.

All that stuff could be made without the use of the Forge, which should be used to make better quality tools and weapons, especially one equipped with a grinding wheel (could be built). These items could be rudimentary at first, but as skill, knowledge, and experience all gain during use of the forge; better items can be made. You could melt down parts of cars (steel) and use it to make an axe or arrowheads, or forging tools to better make items. You could melt down broken arrowheads, axe heads, knives, etc... and make new tools using them. You could build a crossbow using a forge, if you can find and follow different books on making it's various components. You could even experiment with forging new things, such as a sword for better fending off wolves. Or possibly coming up with a way to make a metal axe weigh less and still be efficient in chopping wood. You could make bear traps for bears (doesn't kill the bear, but enrages it so you have limited time to escape or kill it). A forge is only limited by materials, knowledge, and your imagination. You could even try to fashion art out of metal as a way to pass time and increase your metalworking skill.

What are your thoughts? As discussion continues, I'll continuously update this post with additional information.

[Docterrok]

I see your logic, however, I do believe this mechanic would only be beneficial if it was simplified, a complicated weapon crafting system belongs in games such as rust or hurt world, while I quite like the idea of bones, your idea goes against the grain of the game in general. Don't get me wrong, I like your idea, but it's a bit to in depth, things like forging and making shivs seems a bit off for the overall style of the game, but that's just me.

[FrozenScorpion]

How would you simplify the idea of forging? The bone shivs would be a very basic weapon that can be used only in fighting off a wolf. They would have no use outside of that.

[Docterrok]

14 hours ago, FrozenScorpion said:

How would you simplify the idea of forging? The bone shivs would be a very basic weapon that can be used only in fighting off a wolf. They would have no use outside of that.

Its seems too weapon orientated if that makes sense, this isn't an action game per-say, its a resource management game, things like shivs and clubs simply don't belong, maybe a basic spear, but beyond that, it just doesn't seem right, and no one in there right mind would dare shiv a wolf.

[cekivi]

Improvised knives would make more sense than a shiv since they can be multipurpose. Shivs have a purpose in some games but I don't know if many survivors would want to carry one around versus a simple spear. A walking stick/club would be a nice addition though.

For more on flintnapping though you should look up some of @SteveP's posts. He seems to be our local expert (and advocate) on the subject

[Boston123]

Why bother making a shiv when you can make a spear?

Why bother flintknapping when you can make spearheads and arrowheads from sheet metal or even spoons?

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99873

Bone sucks as a weapon material, not because it is ineffective, but because it takes so long to work without power tools. What would you rather do: grind down a piece of bone on a rock/file for a couple of hours, or go to the nearest house, pick out some spoons, hammer them flat and snap/cut off the excess?

I really don't know why people want to do things in the most difficult/least efficient way possible. Maybe because I have wilderness survival training?  

Wilderness survival is about doing things as simply and easily as possible, not about making things difficult.

[cekivi]

@Boston123I think it's more of what people are interested in. i.e. primitive skills versus the most efficient route to make things.

If I was in the long dark I'd just grab a golf club or duct tape a knife to a hockey stick. Come to think of it... why isn't duct tape in the game?

[Boston123]

I dunno, it just doesn't make sense to me. If all of a sudden, we lost power for good, I wouldn't start looking around for stone, bone and glass to make tools from. And I have made arrowheads and knives from all three before.I would look for already-existing versions, or failing that, make my own from metal.

I wouldn't forge a knife from some crappy scrap metal, I would go into a house and pick out an already-perfectly usable kitchen knife. Failing that, I would take a piece of metal and file it down to an edge. I wouldn't grind down some bone or knapp some stone into an arrowhead, I would pick out some spoons and make them into arrowheads.

"Primitive" doesn't mean "literal cavemen with sticks and bones", it really means "practical". 

Unfortunately, "practical" often means "not very fun". Knapping stone, forging metal, all of that is "fun", but it isn't very "practical". Because of that, survival games often sacrifice "practicality" for "fun". This is often at the expense of "realism", which is why I generally dislike so-called "survival games".

Very few of the activities we undertake in The Long Dark make sense from a wilderness survival standpoint. Because, ultimately, wilderness survival isn't very "fun", not from the viewpoint of someone not trained in it.

Oh, and duct tape has a tendency to fail at low temperatures. You would probably be better off lashing the knife to the shaft with actual cord.

 

[cekivi]

Cord could take more lateral stress too come to think of it.

I fully agree with your argument. Given the ruins of civilization I wouldn't skip past the Iron and Bronze Age to go straight back to Stone. Heck, we have more than enough stuff to last a long time if properly cared for. But, like you said, practical isn't always fun

For instance, freezing and lost is not fun in real life (sigh) but is awesome in the game!

[Dirmagnos]

Being longtime proponent of bone/stone/junk working, its not about efficiency its about ability. Thats what survival is about. And when i end up starving to death because i cant kill anything or freezing to death because i cant create basic tools to harvest wood and make fire, i call bullshit. Especially when player is literally surrounded by ton of potential crafting materials.

Survival games are supposed to be about options, not about "theres 2 ways to do it, mine and the wrong one". The less options there are, more linear game becomes(which is especially bad when were talking sandbox-type of games), less suvival feel it has.

And with all due respect to devs, instead of adding stuff(as expanding survival options with new materials and crafting) to game we get some absurd garbage like intestinal parasites. My enjoyment from the game after those changes went completely sideways(havent played in over a month and started again yday, feels like tiny magical parasites are far more dangerous that all wolves and bears in the region combined, not to mention that it completely disbalances whole food issue). And at the same time wolves still feel more like puppies in terms of damage and one good night sleep completely restores character to full health after being mauled by 3-4 different wolves to the brink of death(all during same 24 hour period). Even food poisoning can be just waited over.  

But not parasites, in LD those are on the level of plague in terms of threat - extremely easy to contract(unless player just throws away perfectly good meat, since there is no way to preserve it - seriously, in a survival game !!!) and require 10-15 times more meds and effort to get rid of, compared to any other affliction. And only ones who actually benefit from this "features" are those who use an old exploit that allows them to live off just 1 piece of meat per day, without any consequences to such fantastic way of survival. WTF !

[Boston123]

2 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Being longtime proponent of bone/stone/junk working, its not about efficiency its about ability. Thats what survival is about. And when i end up starving to death because i cant kill anything or freezing to death because i cant create basic tools to harvest wood and make fire, i call bullshit. Especially when player is literally surrounded by ton of potential crafting materials.

Survival games are supposed to be about options, not about "theres 2 ways to do it, mine and the wrong one". The less options there are, more linear game becomes(which is especially bad when were talking sandbox-type of games), less suvival feel it has.

And with all due respect to devs, instead of adding stuff(as expanding survival options with new materials and crafting) to game we get some absurd garbage like intestinal parasites. My enjoyment from the game after those changes went completely sideways(havent played in over a month and started again yday, feels like tiny magical parasites are far more dangerous that all wolves and bears in the region combined, not to mention that it completely disbalances whole food issue). And at the same time wolves still feel more like puppies in terms of damage and one good night sleep completely restores character to full health after being mauled by 3-4 different wolves to the brink of death(all during same 24 hour period). Even food poisoning can be just waited over.  

But not parasites, in LD those are on the level of plague in terms of threat - extremely easy to contract(unless player just throws away perfectly good meat, since there is no way to preserve it - seriously, in a survival game !!!) and require 10-15 times more meds and effort to get rid of, compared to any other affliction. And only ones who actually benefit from this "features" are those who use an old exploit that allows them to live off just 1 piece of meat per day, without any consequences to such fantastic way of survival. WTF !

I understand that, but why do you instantly want to go back to using stone and bone tools? Contrary to what people posting on here think, making tools from stone and bone is not easy. Knapping stone and glass is a learned skill, much like forging metal, and it takes hours to grind down bone into a usable point/edge without power tools. I know, I've done it, and by far I prefer using metal tools.

Meanwhile, it takes about 10 minutes to hammer out a spoon-broadhead, and anyone with a vise (aka any crafting bench) and a hammer could do it.

Or, sharpening the tip of the arrowshaft and charring it in a fire. Again, fast and something anyone could do.

Part of the problem is that the game has removed almost everything that I would logically expect to be present, all in the name of "balance". Why can't I go into a house and take out/use a kitchen knife, or take that blanket off the bed and wrap it around myself? Why can't I pack that refrigerator full of snow and use it to keep food cold? Why can't I break down those cardboard boxes and stack them on the floor for use as a sleeping mat?

So on and so forth.

 

[cekivi]

Or rip out interior (non-structural) walls for firewood if you're desperate enough or light a fire in/on the stove. Drag a barrel inside any home, etc. 

The problem with limitless possibilities is that the devs don't have limitless time to program them

@Dirmagnos: Parasites are really a non-issue unfortunately. I have yet to get them and the penalty is very minor versus other afflictions in the game. I think they are a good mechanic overall... but they still need a lot of work... Just like wolf behaviour. I was commenting on a video I was recording that wolves have devolved from a threat to a nuisance. Hopefully, they become threatening again in a future update.

[Boston123]

6 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

I dont wannt instantly to go back to stone and bone, i wannt an option to go there. To the most basic/primitive forms of crafting, if i feel like it, if situation warrants it, if there is no other option.

"And homeless near a thousand homes i stood, and near a thousand tables pinned and wanted food." William Wordsworth

There is a ton of natural resources that supposedly surround me, yet i cant do nothing with them. Hell, i cant even "see" them according to the game.

Yes, metal tools may be easier to make, may last longer and be more efficient(altho it should depend mainly on player skill, how fast he can make, if at all, something and of what quality). One will eventually run out of spoons/knifes, while stones will always be plentiful(relatively).

And yes, be it blanket, refrigeration or boxes building ideas, they all are logical. Instead we get stuff that dont even make sense.

 

How many spoons do you have in your kitchen right now? How many kitchen knives?

I have got around 20+ spoons, and around  40 kitchen/steak knives, and that is just in one house. Chances are, people aren't going to take their spoons and kitchen knives with them when they evacuate.

Look at the Coastal Highway: it has, what, 10 houses? You would never run out of material. You would have no reason to make things out of stone or bone.

Also, not all stones are suitable for crafting. Granite, which is what I am assuming the majority of stone in TLD is, would make for awful blades and points, if you could even get it that thin. Certain regions just straight-up lack knappable/craftable stone. 

[cekivi]

Just to play the mediator while I personally am not interested in flint knapping being in the game for the reasons you outlined @Boston123 that doesn't mean it can't be in the game. Whether or not Hinterlands makes knapping a possibility I suspect someone will eventually add it via mods. Again, I wouldn't play said mod, but if people want it they'll find a way to get it

@Dirmagnos: Excellent criticism of the parasite system. Would you like me to actually move that post to it's own heading in the feedback forums?

[Dirmagnos]

16 hours ago, Boston123 said:

How many spoons do you have in your kitchen right now? How many kitchen knives?

I have got around 20+ spoons, and around  40 kitchen/steak knives, and that is just in one house. Chances are, people aren't going to take their spoons and kitchen knives with them when they evacuate.

Look at the Coastal Highway: it has, what, 10 houses? You would never run out of material. You would have no reason to make things out of stone or bone.

Also, not all stones are suitable for crafting. Granite, which is what I am assuming the majority of stone in TLD is, would make for awful blades and points, if you could even get it that thin. Certain regions just straight-up lack knappable/craftable stone. 

In my apartment i have less than 20 spoons, maybe around 15, all types. Knives, around 10, including pocket knives and such. And chances are that people will gonna take spoons forks and knives with them. They do need to eat and with no way of knowing how long all this will take, having no other way of eating food but hands is not a good thing. Plus, majority of houses in the game are vacation homes or hunter cabins - they dont need an extensive set of kitchenware, most of those tourists/hunters bring with them. So, there wont be that much of spoon-arrow material laying around anyway. Not to mention quality of those items may wary greatly, making them unusable for such purposes.

Granite ? Where that came from ? Were talking Northern Canada, thats fields and fields and fields of volcanic rock. Finding materials for knapping should be easier than finding wolves. An endless supply for experimenting and testing various designs and ideas.

[Dirmagnos]

15 hours ago, cekivi said:

@Dirmagnos: Excellent criticism of the parasite system. Would you like me to actually move that post to it's own heading in the feedback forums?

Do whatever you wannt with it.

[Docterrok]

While all these point are well and good, I will throw in my two cents on the matter. I am a hobbyist on matters of survival, I have a small area of land devoted to my shenanigans in fact, I would like to say that I find that making tools isnt so far fetched, in fact, tools such as flint axes, clamshell blades, and arrows are all things I have made and hunted with. I hunt exclusively with things I have made by hand, (Rabbits only of course! there's no way i'm going to bag a deer with a crummy ash re-curve! )

anyway, all I can say is that tool crafting is a thing a lot of people do if they do not have an immediate tool at hand, say, a hatchet. Making tools should be a thing, but of course, there quality would be less than one you found. I'm also fond of a more in depth tool crafting system that wouldn't take away from the game (Things being to O.P, etc) I just think it should be a small little addition to the game that can be used, or ignored depending on players preference. As for the matter of supplies 

Gut is a reasonable option for binding.

Stones should be obtained in a similar way to obtaining coal.

since cured maple is a rather valuable substance, logs should be used.

tools that could be made with stone

hatchet

knife

Must have knapper (cured hide, scrap metal) in order to craft stone tools.

 

Thats my idea.

[Boston123]

37 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

In my apartment i have less than 20 spoons, maybe around 15, all types. Knives, around 10, including pocket knives and such. And chances are that people will gonna take spoons forks and knives with them. They do need to eat and with no way of knowing how long all this will take, having no other way of eating food but hands is not a good thing. Plus, majority of houses in the game are vacation homes or hunter cabins - they dont need an extensive set of kitchenware, most of those tourists/hunters bring with them. So, there wont be that much of spoon-arrow material laying around anyway. Not to mention quality of those items may wary greatly, making them unusable for such purposes.

Granite ? Where that came from ? Were talking Northern Canada, thats fields and fields and fields of volcanic rock. Finding materials for knapping should be easier than finding wolves. An endless supply for experimenting and testing various designs and ideas.

So, you have 15 potential arrowheads, in your house alone. Problem solved. Just how many do you think you need?

Don't forget, there was no electricity, nor working vehicles, by the time the previous inhabitants left. I am certain  that they would fill up valuable backpack space with spoons, forks and knives as opposed to, you know, blankets and food.

.....I am sorry, but I can't even take that train of thought seriously.

The majority of houses in-game are actually not vacation homes, actually. I would guess at least half of the actual houses in-game are/were lived in year round, as evidenced by the heating systems. And, "the quality of those items may vary greatly"? People made arrowheads out of copper, and you think stainless steel would be unusable?

You just need a point, you don't need a high-quality of steel, nor a razorblade. The arrowheads that I make have a sharp point and a single-edge bevel that I put on by hand. They cut by punching through flesh, not by being so enormously sharp. If they were that sharp, they would be weak and break easily.

Finally, we totally aren't in "Northern Canada". The Devs can say that all they want, but the info given in-game doesn't match up with reality, much like 95% of the game. I live in, well, Boston, and I can say that I live in "Northern New England". For someone from the South, that even might be reasonably true.  We narrowed it down to the southern British Colombia coast.

Of course, none of this all matters, because the Devs are likely never going to remove the forge, nor implement the above means of crafting.

EDIT: I don't mean to be such a bonehead about this, but I tend to get a little annoyed when people go "yeah, add knapping and bone-carving! Making things the easy way? NO WAY".

[FrozenScorpion]

Wow, I've been gone for a few days due to being busy at work for this week, and the thread exploded over the potential of crafting arrowheads out of spoons. I personally would keep one spoon just so I could stir in some rotten sugar into my spoiled coffee. And I agree with Dirmagnos, survival is the ability to implement solutions to survival via the options we have at hand. A bone shiv made by breaking a bone from a rabbit, chicken, or other animal so that you are left with two sharply splintered pieces, which could be the only thing you have at the exact moment you've been attacked by a predator. I see wood all around me, yet I can't fashion a simple club to beat those damn wolves down for trying to 1-UP me in the food chain. And I have tried and succeeded at fire hardening a point onto a stick (I was bored one night when I went camping, and we had shifts to watch for bears so nobody gets attacked). So I would of tried to make fire hardened arrows instead of making a trip to desolation point or try to find more than one broken arrow.

When we get our fire pit built in the back yard, I'll make a couple "arrows" and a "spear" by fire hardening a tip on them, and take pics to share.

The purpose of the forge should be giving us an option to create tools and weapons that are better than their stone and wood counterparts. Not give us the only option to make tools and weapons.

[cekivi]

6 minutes ago, FrozenScorpion said:

The purpose of the forge should be giving us an option to create tools and weapons that are better than their stone and wood counterparts. Not give us the only option to make tools and weapons.

Now that is a statement I can 100% support

[Dirmagnos]

No, i really just have 15 spoons, making arrowheads out of them is another question. Depending on my skill, tools and initial quality of those spoons. 15 spoons do not equal 15 arrowheads.

We dont really know when previous occupants left or where. A lack of vehicles in the area indicates that there were either not that many inhabitants to begin with, and therefore far less spots for potential spoon-arrow materials. Or that locals received some-kind of warning and had time to pack and evacuate prior to Event.

Even if thats not the case, its likely, due to herd mentality, that most communities left together, possibly having improvised sleds or such. That theory is supported by lack of stuff in houses and signs of hasty packing. You wont pack up more than you can carry/transport. Otherwise wed see a lot more corpses, by the road, with baggage besides them. At best we find backpacks that rarely have anything of use in them.

At least half the houses are lived year-round ? There are 6 stoves/fire barrels in ML map, not counting fishing huts(or now you gonna claim that THOSE are dwellings where ppl live year-round), 2 of them are in burned down/abandoned houses and fire barrel is in dam. So it leaves 3 stoves per 15 structures that have beds(and can be classified as homes in general). Hardly half or even near it. Not 2 mention that there is only handful of houses in total on all maps that look like they could sustain inhabitants all year long.

And how exactly "we" narrowed it down. Based on what and to what ? And theres plenty of volcanic rock in BC as well, plus most of rock formation in game dont look even remotely like they are composed from granite.

[FrozenScorpion]

If there is volcanic rock in BC, would it be too far fetched to find the occasional piece of obsidian?

[Dirmagnos]

3 minutes ago, FrozenScorpion said:

If there is volcanic rock in BC, would it be too far fetched to find the occasional piece of obsidian?

Thats kinda the idea.

[FrozenScorpion]

I would love to use obsidian to make a knife and arrowheads, hell I keep a polished obsidian ball on my desk from my vacation in Mexico, alongside a carved knife with the depiction of the Mayan Deity for Knowledge on the handle.

Obsidian is my favorite kind of glass. So many different uses too.

[cekivi]

@Dirmagnos @Boston123 was probably referring to the Coastal Highway and Pleasant Valley both of which have homes, infrastructure, roads, etc. How north/south is still debatable but a teaser map for Great Bear Island was released so assuming Pacific Coast is  accurate for the game. Most people assume Vancouver Island is the model for Great Bear Island since that's where the studio is based.