Not happy at all with cabin fever on pilgrim mode

[Lilac Wine]

Last updates didn't make me really happy, I must confess.
Instead of create new challenges within the old game modes, it created new ways to get on my nerves.
Before .338 fatigue was not enough, I agreed on that. I mostly play on pilgrim and I found myself bored during the night time, but this time, after the new update, any thing the character does makes it tired, and tired means that climbing 2 ropes the same day becomes impossible and it means getting overloaded too easily. It's foolish to be already tired with 10 hours of daylight ahead, only because you make her/him sprint just once. That means that walking became slower too and more boring. Less sprints, more tiredness, a lot of time to complete maps only because the stupid character becomes tired every kilometer. Walking was already getting slower and slower at every update, with the damn wind and all.
The maps are wide enough. Slowing the walking styles won't prolong the life of the game itself.

Plus, I get cabin fever in pilgrim mode. So, the more the character becomes tired, the more has to rest, the more risk of cabin fever it gets.

The first time, I was finally sewing deer boots and trousers and I had to stop and spend the night in a fishing cabin (I was in Coastal Highway). This time, I started a new game in Timberwolf and my character is alive since only 5 days and 22 hours. The weather has been mostly terrible, but I get her out all days to provide for wood and food and now the game warns me I have 77% risk of cabin fever? After 5 days 22h of life and going out every day?
You said it would have been a risk after many days indoors and that it wouldn't be possible in pilgrim. Instead, I find out I have to sleep outside to make the game happy? But why don't you let the players have their own style? If I make her sleep outside, there will be a storm and her dresses will be torn in a few hours, that means I won't be able to make her climb over the top and access the wrecked plane. I'll be forced to move to Pleasant Valley, to get more clothes and shelters.

Not to mention that I slept one  night in a cave and 4 nights in the lake cabin, that the game consider to be "outdoors".

This game is going to be enjoyable only to the hard core players. The new challange mode is great but the old game mode didn't improve.
I don't think that nuisances can be considered challenges.

Bring my character to sleep in the fishing cabin just outside the stone cabin won't make the game more difficult or funnier or more realistic.

I think we'd need more things to do, more stuff to find, more things to craft, etc.

[Patrick Carlson]

 

Hi Lilac Wine,

Just to follow up on your feedback--Are you actually contracting Cabin Fever on Pilgrim mode, or are you just "at risk"? There is currently an issue where you may be "at risk" but you won't actually get the affliction.

 

[nicko]

I tend to agree with @Lilac Wine now we seem to get very tired just going say from outdoors across the pond, maybe sprint a bit, collect some wood. Go back to cabin. Is it just TW map that is so much harder than other maps on all levels? Fatigue mainly?

Anyway maybe something to investigate? either way I am surviving so far just playing TW map in a new game 3.39. running out of matches, trying to get more clothing created. I need boots next, also never ending collecting wood to keep warm in the meantime. Actually it's pretty fun. I think it will be quiet a challenge to make it to Top.

[Ruruwawa]

4 hours ago, nicko said:

I tend to agree with @Lilac Wine now we seem to get very tired just going say from outdoors across the pond, maybe sprint a bit, collect some wood. Go back to cabin. Is it just TW map that is so much harder than other maps on all levels? Fatigue mainly?

Anyway maybe something to investigate? either way I am surviving so far just playing TW map in a new game 3.39. running out of matches, trying to get more clothing created. I need boots next, also never ending collecting wood to keep warm in the meantime. Actually it's pretty fun. I think it will be quiet a challenge to make it to Top.

I mostly play Voyager or Stalker, but a bit of Pilgrim too.  I feel the fatigue is too much on pilgrim.  Not a lot too much, but enough that you have to nap many days in order to make it to sunset.   (I should mention that I rarely sprint.  But climbing a rope, chopping wood, trekking a fair distance... anything remotely vigorous and I have to nap.)  It seems a bit too restrictive for Pilgrim.  Maybe tune it down 15%?

@nicko I love that playstyle in TWM, possibly my favoritet in the whole game.

 

[Dreepa]

I think the issue is fundamental in the systems design.

Im my honest opinion, the problem lies within having chosen one variable per feature/trait (Cold, fatigue, thirst, hunger).

This creates a dilemma. The system cannot serve both situations:

->The one being prolonged sustained challenge to manage on the macro layer (e.g. "will I make it to the other side of the forest?") 

->The other being short-term pressure/strain (e.g. "will I be able to sprint through that blizzard over to the house across the street?")

 

Mabye it should be considered to have a layered system, where variable B is affected through variable A. With A being the short term indicator and B being the long term indicator.

So let's say you sprint: A and B both go downwards (with A depleting much faster than B), but afterwards you get some energy back, so A raises again, yet B stays low. A is your short term "breath" and B is your overall "tiredness level"

The more you use that short term stamin "A" to push yourself, the faster B degenerates. The lower B, the slower A regenerates.
And max B is capping the max of A.

It could all be displayed in one GUI status bar (e.g. outer frame, inner frame.... or colored bar on non-colored bar).

 

 

[MueckE]

since pilgrim is THE exploration/new player mode, maybe the devs can just tune it back to where it was before the update (fatique system) for pilgrim.

[Ruruwawa]

1 hour ago, Dreepa said:

I think the issue is fundamental in the systems design.

Im my honest opinion, the problem lies within having chosen one variable per feature/trait (Cold, fatigue, thirst, hunger).

This creates a dilemma. The system cannot serve both situations:

->The one being prolonged sustained challenge to manage on the macro layer (e.g. "will I make it to the other side of the forest?") 

->The other being short-term pressure/strain (e.g. "will I be able to sprint through that blizzard over to the house across the street?")

 

Mabye it should be considered to have a layered system, where variable B is affected through variable A. With A being the short term indicator and B being the long term indicator.

So let's say you sprint: A and B both go downwards (with A depleting much faster than B), but afterwards you get some energy back, so A raises again, yet B stays low. A is your short term "breath" and B is your overall "tiredness level"

The more you use that short term stamin "A" to push yourself, the faster B degenerates. The lower B, the slower A regenerates.
And max B is capping the max of A.

It could all be displayed in one GUI status bar (e.g. outer frame, inner frame.... or colored bar on non-colored bar).

 

 

Personally I'm all for more complex and subtle systems, but I'm not the target audience for Pilgrim.   For Pilgrim players (who are often brand new to the game) I favor the easiest-to-understand system, with a more forgiving outcome than on the other difficulties.

[nicko]

I have been playing pilgrim on TW map 3.39 28 days now and to me fatigue still seems out of balance.

Sure it's harder, which is good but I think it's just need tuned down a bit so we can do more things during the day. Playing this map you have to pretty much collect wood, find food etc every single day. but atm I get to tired to early which kind of sucks, specially when it's a nice day outside.

[Scyzara]

20 hours ago, MueckE said:

since pilgrim is THE exploration/new player mode, maybe the devs can just tune it back to where it was before the update (fatique system) for pilgrim.

It's not that easy, unfortunately. The crux of the matter is that people show very different amounts of activity during an average day depending on their playstyle. For one person it may be normal to just walk a few hundred meters, collect a few sticks and spend 6 hours fishing during an average day. Others climb ropes, walk 4km each day and wrestle with multiple wolves in the process. The problem is that - in order to sleep through the night - BOTH players need to be exhausted by the end of the day. Not only the high-activity guy, but also the fisherman.

And if the old Pilgrim fatigue rates were simply reintroduced again without further changes, the same problem about waking up in the middle of the night would occur which actually was the reason for the whole fatigue change to a Stalker level in the first place. (People have been complaining that it's a tedious micro-management and also very immersion-breaking not to be able to sleep for more than 4-6 hours in a row after an "average" day in Pilgrim. And I for one find these complaints very justified.)

I don't want to say that the system doesn't need further tweaking, but simply decreasing the fatigue rates wouldn't work without the unwanted side-effect of chronic insomnia again. 

Maybe the fatigue gain in Pilgrim could be decreased a little (-30% or so) while at the same time the rest gain while sleeping could be decreased accordingly. Like this, Pilgrim players wouldn't have to be completely exhausted by the end of the day (bar filled 0%) to sleep through the night, but could also sleep 10h in a row if their fatigue bar is still 30% or maybe even 35% filled.

This would obviously also have side-effects (it would take a few hours longer than currently  to get your fatigue bar back from 0 to 100%) but that's probably the least of all evils as time is one of the things we really have plenty of in TLD.

[nicko]

17 minutes ago, Scyzara said:

It's not that easy, unfortunately. The crux of the matter is that people show very different amounts of activity during an average day depending on their playstyle. For one person it may be normal to just walk a few hundred meters, collect a few sticks and spend 6 hours fishing during an average day. Others climb ropes, walk 4km each day and wrestle with multiple wolves in the process. The problem is that - in order to sleep through the night - BOTH players need to be exhausted by the end of the day. Not only the high-activity guy, but also the fisherman.

maybe it needs to be more map based then because if you play Pilgrim on some maps such as TWM you can't just sit around and twiddle your thumbs or you will freeze or die of starvation. Same with PV and maybe CH map.

[Ruruwawa]

1 hour ago, Scyzara said:

It's not that easy, unfortunately. The crux of the matter is that people show very different amounts of activity during an average day depending on their playstyle. For one person it may be normal to just walk a few hundred meters, collect a few sticks and spend 6 hours fishing during an average day. Others climb ropes, walk 4km each day and wrestle with multiple wolves in the process. The problem is that - in order to sleep through the night - BOTH players need to be exhausted by the end of the day. Not only the high-activity guy, but also the fisherman.

Maybe the question is, is the goal of sleeping 10-11 hours every night for both sedentary and active play styles really necessary?  Pass Time might not be the most engaging mechanic (for the sedentary guy), but it's less risky than having to manage getting back to your base while deep in the red, fatigue-wise.  As a new player, the Pilgrim guy might not yet understand the relation between fatigue and carry weight.  He might not know the map well enough to find a bed to take a nap.  Definitely some extra difficulty for the Pilgrim mode players with this change.

[MueckE]

no i meant the fatique system before tireless update - so just sleep as long as you want even if you are rested and are at 100% condition. couldn't it be changed to this again in pilgrim?

Oh by the way, exactly this mechanic (not beeing able to sleep when you are rested) is my absolut favorite addition to the game, i just love it I totally can understand the issue pilgrim players have with that. That's whythis mechanic maybe can be deactivated for them (and ofc on top the old fatique rate for balance)

[Scyzara]

14 hours ago, MueckE said:

no i meant the fatique system before tireless update - so just sleep as long as you want even if you are rested and are at 100% condition. couldn't it be changed to this again in pilgrim?

I guess it could theoretically be changed again, but this would also cause unwanted sideeffects. Namely to make the transition from Pilgrim to Voyageur (which most people experience as pretty harsh anyway) even more difficult. Currently, Pilgrims don't have to worry about wolves and thus hardly learn how to avoid or fight them, but they can at least learn how to deal with limited amounts of sleep (and thus a limited health regeneration potential).

I guess it might be pretty hard for them to learn how to deal with wolves AND how to manage their exhaustion levels at once. Especially when considering that most Pilgrim players aren't exactly the kind of players who long for extremely difficult challenges and punishing experiences.

I for one find it important to make the difficulty gaps between modes more or less evenly wide to ensure that everyone has the possibility to "step up" if that is their wish. That's why I personally would prefer to introduce as many game mechanics as possible to Pilgrim players already (in a somehow non-lethal version, ofc.) so they have an easier time to adapt to other modes later on.

[Dreepa]

On 3.6.2016 at 10:18 PM, Ruruwawa said:

Personally I'm all for more complex and subtle systems, but I'm not the target audience for Pilgrim.   For Pilgrim players (who are often brand new to the game) I favor the easiest-to-understand system, with a more forgiving outcome than on the other difficulties.

 

Oh, I didnt meant for it to be pilgrim mode only. I think it is a general thing about the game: It has short term and long term exahustion. But it only has 1 variable to simulate that. So it will always be a problem on the one end or the other.

[Ruruwawa]

1 hour ago, Scyzara said:

I for one find it important to make the difficulty gaps between modes more or less evenly wide to ensure that everyone has the possibility to "step up" if that is their wish. That's why I personally would prefer to introduce as many game mechanics as possible to Pilgrim players already (in a somehow non-lethal version, ofc.) so they have an easier time to adapt to other modes later on.

I may be wrong, but my impression was that Hinterland don't see Pilgrim as a stepping stone to Voyageur.  I thought it was supposed to be it's own thing, a gentler meditative experience.  

[nicko]

I play Pilgrim a lot because I just prefer it for some reason or other. However I still like to get other game play experiences such as the new fatigue, and maybe even cabin fever.

Sure maybe the Pilgrim mode can be toned down a bit before you get those inflictions, but at least we get to learn /use them before going to the next harder style of play.

[Scyzara]

1 hour ago, Ruruwawa said:

I may be wrong, but my impression was that Hinterland don't see Pilgrim as a stepping stone to Voyageur.  I thought it was supposed to be it's own thing, a gentler meditative experience.

You're right about Hinterland's interpretation of the modes being primarily different experiences in general, but many players still start playing in Pilgrim to learn the basic game mechanics and the lay of the land before they decide to switch to Voyageur (or Stalker) later on. There's no contradiction between Pilgrim being a meditative experience and the stepping stone to Voyageur imo. 

Not everyone decides to "progress" through all modes/experiences ofc, some people stay Pilgrims happily ever after or jump right into Stalker (which are both perfectly viable choices and I'm happy the game offers these possibilities!) But I somehow still have the impression most players start as Pilgrims and end up as Voyageurs (or Stalkers) eventually. And I find it a bit unfortunate if they have a harder (or a more frustrating) time than necessary to switch between these experiences.