Return arrowhead crafting to workbench

[EternityTide]

4 hours ago, Patrick Carlson said:

Where did you hear this? The only Forge currently in the game is located in Desolation Point.

There is a crafting table in the lower turbine room, is that what you mean?

No, I'm pretty sure there was a forge at the far end of the lower turbine corridor - the corridor you enter from the turbine room in Carter Hydro Dam Proper. Where a corpse is often slumped against the door. I found a forge down the end of that corridor, just before the steps leading up to the fire exit at the end (just after the especially dark bit?).
Admittedly, when I encountered it, it was around January-March, but I'm fairly certain there was a forge down there, unless it's been removed in subsequent updates (haven't played in months due to work.)
I'm definite it was a forge and not a crafting table, the UI was asking for coal.

[EternityTide]

3 hours ago, vancopower said:

Dude it is a wolf not a dog, it does not back down no matter how much you scream. Plus it is probably starving, and yes it is smart so no matter what you do your theatrics will not work.  An easier option will be fire, wildlife runs from fire. But it will be coming back. Sooner or later you'll have to face it and fight it and kill it.

I can give you this example from real life experience. A man I know shot a wild boar, but he used small slugs and the boar just charged him it wasn't even a big boar. Then when it came close grabbing his leg and tearing it to shreds he used steel knife and killed the boar by burrowing it in it's skull.

However the hunter was hospitalized immediately thankfully he went with friends and they found him bleeding on the ground.  Now if a boar can do that imagine what a hungry wolf will do to you when you make clown of yourself waving your flimsy knife around yes?

About wars I was thinking about organized armies not couple of neanderthals waving sticks. Just watch the show it is amazing, also religion began to appear at the same time. Otherwise yea no matter how we sugarcoat it we humans are violent creatures, it is easier to take something then to work for it.

Dude, a boar is not a wolf.
Completely different animal, completely different behaviour. 
There is a general rule with predators, that is they avoid other predators. Humans are apex predators, as are wolves, although arguably humans much more dangerous.
I hear it often said that "well other animals could easily overpower us" and that is very true, however our strengths as a predator is our endurance and our intellect.
If we weren't the apex predator, how in hell's name did we become the dominant species of this planet?
Now, Wolves recognise the fact we are predators, and avoid us thusly - get into a fight with another predator, and, even if you win, the other predator will probably do enough damage that you'll never be able to hunt and feed yourself.
Lone wolves are especially nervy - they will only take on weak targets, the wounded, the old, the especially young. It's only as a pack that they become bold enough to take down healthy animals. Now, as @Boston123 stated, if you suddenly start roaring and shouting and waving a stick at them, you will scare the holy bejeesus out of a lone wolf. Lone wolves ambush or run down their prey, they don't pick hard targets that fight back.
Don't mistake an enraged boar, backed into a corner, fighting for its life, to behave the same way as a wolf looking for a meal. And a starving wolf is much weaker, a healthy human could kill one provided the wolf didn't get to the throat first.

As for your statement about warfare... warfare is a state of armed conflict between two factions/societies/groups. Don't bash Neanderthals, they actually hard larger cranial capacity than us Homo Sapiens. The scale of warfare is irrelevant, and I think you'll find that units not dissimilar to infantry, archers and cavalry have existed for thousands of years, so yes, they were organised, they just had less people to organise, and so the death toll and scale of theatre was much smaller.

[Scyzara]

7 hours ago, EternityTide said:

No, I'm pretty sure there was a forge at the far end of the lower turbine corridor - the corridor you enter from the turbine room in Carter Hydro Dam Proper. Where a corpse is often slumped against the door. I found a forge down the end of that corridor, just before the steps leading up to the fire exit at the end (just after the especially dark bit?).
Admittedly, when I encountered it, it was around January-March, but I'm fairly certain there was a forge down there, unless it's been removed in subsequent updates (haven't played in months due to work.)
I'm definite it was a forge and not a crafting table, the UI was asking for coal.

Unless you had the weirdest bug I've ever heard of, you must be confounding things. Which is nothing to worry about in particular, human memory is often constructing details  retroactively if they somehow make sense for us in a certain context. (That's why witnesses of crimes are sometimes entirely convinced they saw suspect X at a crime scene albeit the poor guy had never been there in his whole life.)

There is definitely no forge inside the dam in the current game version and I very much doubt there ever was one in any previous version. Well, if anyone knows for sure that would probably be @Drifter Man. He's been living inside the dam for half an eternity and he would certainly have notice a forge should it have been there at some point.

[Drifter Man]

9 hours ago, EternityTide said:

No, I'm pretty sure there was a forge at the far end of the lower turbine corridor - the corridor you enter from the turbine room in Carter Hydro Dam Proper. Where a corpse is often slumped against the door. I found a forge down the end of that corridor, just before the steps leading up to the fire exit at the end (just after the especially dark bit?).
Admittedly, when I encountered it, it was around January-March, but I'm fairly certain there was a forge down there, unless it's been removed in subsequent updates (haven't played in months due to work.)
I'm definite it was a forge and not a crafting table, the UI was asking for coal.

You have definitely piqued my interest  I've never noticed a forge in the Dam, but I cannot say with 100% certainty that there isn't one, or wasn't one. It will be the first thing to check as soon as I return from my current trip to Desolation Point.

[nicko]

11 minutes ago, Drifter Man said:

You have definitely piqued my interest  I've never noticed a forge in the Dam, but I cannot say with 100% certainty that there isn't one, or wasn't one. It will be the first thing to check as soon as I return from my current trip to Desolation Point.

 

[vancopower]

13 hours ago, EternityTide said:

Dude, a boar is not a wolf.
Completely different animal, completely different behaviour. 
There is a general rule with predators, that is they avoid other predators. Humans are apex predators, as are wolves, although arguably humans much more dangerous.
I hear it often said that "well other animals could easily overpower us" and that is very true, however our strengths as a predator is our endurance and our intellect.
If we weren't the apex predator, how in hell's name did we become the dominant species of this planet?
Now, Wolves recognise the fact we are predators, and avoid us thusly - get into a fight with another predator, and, even if you win, the other predator will probably do enough damage that you'll never be able to hunt and feed yourself.
Lone wolves are especially nervy - they will only take on weak targets, the wounded, the old, the especially young. It's only as a pack that they become bold enough to take down healthy animals. Now, as @Boston123 stated, if you suddenly start roaring and shouting and waving a stick at them, you will scare the holy bejeesus out of a lone wolf. Lone wolves ambush or run down their prey, they don't pick hard targets that fight back.
Don't mistake an enraged boar, backed into a corner, fighting for its life, to behave the same way as a wolf looking for a meal. And a starving wolf is much weaker, a healthy human could kill one provided the wolf didn't get to the throat first.

As for your statement about warfare... warfare is a state of armed conflict between two factions/societies/groups. Don't bash Neanderthals, they actually hard larger cranial capacity than us Homo Sapiens. The scale of warfare is irrelevant, and I think you'll find that units not dissimilar to infantry, archers and cavalry have existed for thousands of years, so yes, they were organised, they just had less people to organise, and so the death toll and scale of theatre was much smaller.

Human Predators Whaaat???? who gave you that Idea??  all predators are carnivorous and Humans are omnivorous. It is hypothesized that humans or should I say our ancestors evolved from Herbivores not carnivores. Humans adapted to hunting not the other way around. If we evolved from predators where are our claws our sharp teeth  more precise our fangs. We have herbivore teeth. 

Why do you thing we need to cook the meat before we eat it? have you thought of that?  Predators do not need to cook the meat their stomachs evolved in that way they raise their temperature to boil the meat and thus removing any pathogens and bacteria. Also they can produce vitamin C in their liver, but Humans do not posses that ability.

Being dominant species on the planet doesn't mean we have to eat everyone else that's absurd. Humans became dominant because we figured how to use tools, which also is something that chimpanzee can do. Who knows maybe in another 100.000 years maybe they will became dominant  

Seriously do not think that you can scare a wolf that easily they are vicious. My home town was infested with wolves about 100 years ago since it is surrounded by mountains. I can tell you stories that I've heard some of which are pretty scary. Forget what you watch on cheep documentaries. I remember this story:

Once upon the time there was a Shepard he had about 60 sheep. He decided one day to take the sheep higher to greener pastures however a  hungry shewolf was on the prowl and took notice of the delicious sheep jumping around. The shewolf remained in the field the whole day hidden in a bush and when it was dark and the Sheppard gathered the sheep to go home she ponced and killed the fattest sheep almost instantly, thankfully the Sheppard carried his trusty double-barrel hunting rifle or whatever they had back in the day  so he fired at the wolf and got it in the left leg. The wolf run away screaming. Yeee humans win? NOOO!

However  Later that night the she-wolf returned, but not to eat she approached the Sheppard's farm  unseen and slaughtered all of the 60 sheep one by one so by the morning  when the Shepard woke up there she was still choking the life out of the last sheep and not once she ate. It was just a simple revenge, She knew that she would bleed out.  True story it is up to you if you believe it or not. I have not downloaded this from anywhere it was told to me, and I'm not so talented to make this whole thing up.

Wolves are not dumb animals they understand if you are real threat or not. Sure their first reaction like any life creature will be to run away but believe me they will come back and the same trick you did will not work twice. Just like in the movie The Grey. They will hunt you down. Wolf never backs down even a bear might lose interest in you but a wolf no way.

Also you are wrong about this too: the hungrier the wolf is the more ferocious it is. In fact it is just the opposite if the wolf has eaten recently it can lose interest in you, however it remembers where you are and it can smell you from a miles away so If you hang out in the same place a lot the wolf will track you down.   Hey this will be nice feature for the game DEVS if you are watching this Instead of Cabin Fever which is not so realistic make wolves appear near your house if you stay too long in one place. It will simulate that they tracked you down smelled you and they are starving  

[EternityTide]

25 minutes ago, vancopower said:

Human Predators Whaaat???? who gave you that Idea??  all predators are carnivorous and Humans are omnivorous. It is hypothesized that humans or should I say our ancestors evolved from Herbivores not carnivores. Humans adapted to hunting not the other way around. If we evolved from predators where are our claws our sharp teeth  more precise our fangs. We have herbivore teeth. 

Why do you thing we need to cook the meat before we eat it? have you thought of that?  Predators do not need to cook the meat their stomachs evolved in that way they raise their temperature to boil the meat and thus removing any pathogens and bacteria. Also they can produce vitamin C in their liver, but Humans do not posses that ability.

Being dominant species on the planet doesn't mean we have to eat everyone else that's absurd. Humans became dominant because we figured how to use tools, which also is something that chimpanzee can do. Who knows maybe in another 100.000 years maybe they will became dominant  

I suppose bears aren't predators then, because they are omnivorous. I presume chimpanzees, as well, since they too are omnivorous (chimpanzees have been recorded hunting and eating meat, as well as eating insects).
Humans have forward facing eyes, a characteristic of predators - prey animals have lateral eyes, enabling them to have almost 360° vision. The human method of hunting down prey, unlike other predators, is not to overpower the animal. Instead, humans run after the animal. Our biology is designed such that we can maintain a relatively fast pace for exceptionally great distances. Our body plan is designed to cope with this kind of strain, and we can run for many kilometres without become exhausted (a healthy, fit human, anyway). Our sweat glands keep us cool, and our bipedal stance conserves more energy of long distances than a quadrupedal stance does. 
See the following video:

 

 

[nicko]

there is still no forge in the dam area, and yes you have to craft arrow heads at DP map / Ricken ship

[vancopower]

2 minutes ago, EternityTide said:

I suppose bears aren't predators then, because they are omnivorous. I presume chimpanzees, as well, since they too are omnivorous (chimpanzees have been recorded hunting and eating meat, as well as eating insects).
Humans have forward facing eyes, a characteristic of predators - prey animals have lateral eyes, enabling them to have almost 360° vision. The human method of hunting down prey, unlike other predators, is not to overpower the animal. Instead, humans run after the animal. Our biology is designed such that we can maintain a relatively fast pace for exceptionally great distances:

 

 

You just don't get it do you? You can't scare a wolf with waving sticks  or glass knives or whatever. Trust me I am all about the human tenaciousness and creativity, and I do believe even in this destroyed world that TLD presents humans will dominate once again, however waving sticks and making noises at hungry wolf is plain stupid. Better save your energy to kill it once it attacks, they are not brainless they will jump back but realize that you are just puffing smoke and are not real thread and then they jump you.  Wanna be real scary fire in the only way to go. other than that nothing helps. Also this poor man in the video has never encountered wolf since they do not live there. And I'm sure if he does he will run as fast as he can.   Good video by the way, thanks.

P.S. I din't want to say this but I also believed that I can scare canines with screaming once. A friend was dragged by ferocious german shepherd dog I tried to scare it to stop just like you describe it here waving hands and making loud noises. However it jumped almost took my fingers off, I slapped it on the mouth with my other hand but this only enraged it, if it wasn't for my friend to pull it back it would have bit me and I am not a small guy.  I did some research afterwards and if a dog barks at you it is better to hold your hand towards it and look away so it can come close smell your hand and then it will calm down. But not true with wolves I suppose  

[EternityTide]

I do like how you've completely dropped the "humans are not predators" side of your statement and focused one what you consider the stronger part of your argument.
While wolves do live in Africa (see the African Golden Wolf), they are not major threats to humans - the Lions tend to be more dangerous. And even then, lone Lions are wary of humans. The Maasai people even hunt Lions with bows and spears as a rite of passage.
Being noisy and making exaggerated movements is a threat display, recognised by all animals. A wolf will try and take a human unawares, but typically avoid humans as much as possible. All predators share this characteristic. Even sharks will back off if a human attacks them.
Aggressive behaviour will usually drive an animal away. This isn't 100% guaranteed, but this is the general rule of thumb.
And as for your anecdote about a German Shepard, may I point out this interesting piece of insight:
 

19 hours ago, vancopower said:

Dude it is a wolf not a dog

I think we have gone off topic a bit.

[Eames]

Now that I think about it – if not returning arrowheads to crafting table then every region should get a forge instead.

[vancopower]

On 12.6.2016 at 5:44 PM, EternityTide said:

I do like how you've completely dropped the "humans are not predators" side of your statement and focused one what you consider the stronger part of your argument.
While wolves do live in Africa (see the African Golden Wolf), they are not major threats to humans - the Lions tend to be more dangerous. And even then, lone Lions are wary of humans. The Maasai people even hunt Lions with bows and spears as a rite of passage.
Being noisy and making exaggerated movements is a threat display, recognised by all animals. A wolf will try and take a human unawares, but typically avoid humans as much as possible. All predators share this characteristic. Even sharks will back off if a human attacks them.
Aggressive behaviour will usually drive an animal away. This isn't 100% guaranteed, but this is the general rule of thumb.
And as for your anecdote about a German Shepard, may I point out this interesting piece of insight:
 

I think we have gone off topic a bit.

I am posting real life experiences and you are quoting me some info which is broad and somewhat unrelated to the discussion that's why the discussion goes off topic my dear sir or mam. I haven't dropped the "humans are not predators" because I believe I was clear on that we evolved from herbivores it is as simple as that. Sure Human physiology is complex and we did developed some predator traits as you pointed out like our eyes are up front, but let's focus on the big issue here what is the meat of this dispute and I will post this on First-caps just to be more clear:  Do You Really Think That You Can Scare A Wolf By Waving A Stick ?

Now let's get back on topic, arrowheads should they return to the crafting table NO! However we can use the flimsy materials like glass and other types to craft weaker versions that break more easily and instead of recovering the arrow head we should recover the shaft that goes both for the metal arrows and these new ones made of glass and other stuff. What do you think of this idea?  Off course this will make arrows common item which is still not good. If anyone can elaborate more please feel free to do so.

[Boston123]

33 minutes ago, vancopower said:

I am posting real life experiences and you are quoting me some info which is broad and somewhat unrelated to the discussion that's why the discussion goes off topic my dear sir or mam. I haven't dropped the "humans are not predators" because I believe I was clear on that we evolved from herbivores it is as simple as that. Sure Human physiology is complex and we did developed some predator traits as you pointed out like our eyes are up front, but let's focus on the big issue here what is the meat of this dispute and I will post this on First-caps just to be more clear:  Do You Really Think That You Can Scare A Wolf By Waving A Stick ?

Now let's get back on topic, arrowheads should they return to the crafting table NO! However we can use the flimsy materials like glass and other types to craft weaker versions that break more easily and instead of recovering the arrow head we should recover the shaft that goes both for the metal arrows and these new ones made of glass and other stuff. What do you think of this idea?  Off course this will make arrows common item which is still not good. If anyone can elaborate more please feel free to do so.

Mate, you jump around from topic to topic so often ,it makes my brain hurt. Can you at least keep one topic to a paragraph?

You can think we evolved from herbivores ( I am far from telling you what opinion to have), but you would be straight-up wrong. ALL Great Apes are omnivores, and have been for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years.  Undeniable fact: check the fossil record. 

1) Yeah, I really think I can scare away a lone wolf with a stick. Considering how basically every bit of literature concerning predator attacks agrees with me about my general strategy ( scream, make a lot of noise, wave your arms around, make yourself look bigger and more aggressive), I think the argument is basically cut-and-dried. Vs a pack of angry wolves, would it work? No, of course not, but the wolves in TLD don't form packs, so that is moot.

2) All you are doing is repeating your opinion, over and over. While it is certainly as valid as any other opinion (you know that old chestnut about opinions and buttholes.....), that is all it is. An opinion isn't fact. On the other hand, I have been posting facts about the smithing process, and how I make arrowheads in real life. As for making arrows "too common"..... how many arrows do you think i have sitting in my quiver, right now (in real life)?. Probably at least 20. 5 "hunting" broadheads, about 8 "field points", the rest unfinished bare shafts. I made all of them in about 3 days.

The limiting factor in arrowmaking isn't the head, it is the fletching. and really, if you have to make an arrow, you don't "have" to use feathers. In real life, I have used everything from leaves to duct-tape to make fletchings. In-game, the amount of feathers would limit the amount of arrows you could make. Make heads more common/easy to make, limit the amount of feathers. If you found 1-2 feathers at each corpse, instead of 3, it doesn't really matter how many arrowheads you have, does it?

In real life, without going out and killing a bird, I have rarely found more than one feather at a time. Even then, they are mostly unusable. 

[vancopower]

On 14.6.2016 at 11:16 PM, Boston123 said:

Mate, you jump around from topic to topic so often ,it makes my brain hurt. Can you at least keep one topic to a paragraph?

You can think we evolved from herbivores ( I am far from telling you what opinion to have), but you would be straight-up wrong. ALL Great Apes are omnivores, and have been for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years.  Undeniable fact: check the fossil record. 

1) Yeah, I really think I can scare away a lone wolf with a stick. Considering how basically every bit of literature concerning predator attacks agrees with me about my general strategy ( scream, make a lot of noise, wave your arms around, make yourself look bigger and more aggressive), I think the argument is basically cut-and-dried. Vs a pack of angry wolves, would it work? No, of course not, but the wolves in TLD don't form packs, so that is moot.

2) All you are doing is repeating your opinion, over and over. While it is certainly as valid as any other opinion (you know that old chestnut about opinions and buttholes.....), that is all it is. An opinion isn't fact. On the other hand, I have been posting facts about the smithing process, and how I make arrowheads in real life. As for making arrows "too common"..... how many arrows do you think i have sitting in my quiver, right now (in real life)?. Probably at least 20. 5 "hunting" broadheads, about 8 "field points", the rest unfinished bare shafts. I made all of them in about 3 days.

The limiting factor in arrowmaking isn't the head, it is the fletching. and really, if you have to make an arrow, you don't "have" to use feathers. In real life, I have used everything from leaves to duct-tape to make fletchings. In-game, the amount of feathers would limit the amount of arrows you could make. Make heads more common/easy to make, limit the amount of feathers. If you found 1-2 feathers at each corpse, instead of 3, it doesn't really matter how many arrowheads you have, does it?

In real life, without going out and killing a bird, I have rarely found more than one feather at a time. Even then, they are mostly unusable. 

Well I suppose that we are at impasse, all I can say is may you never encounter a lone wolf.  I am sorry if you found this repetitive it is just hard for me to imagine human scaring away a wolf, as I said my home town was infested with them long time ago we know wolves and we know that for a Fact they don't scare easily as you think, however you have your own strong opinion about this so good luck with that   

As for TLD I can say we need more crafting options: For people like me that will go forging and people like you who  would like something else I hope this long debate will inspire the Devs to give us that kind of diversity.  I never had the experience to craft arrows or anything like that, but I once helped a blacksmith forging blades and horseshoes by holding the pliers and extinguishing the metal but that was loooong time ago but yea enough to encourage me to do it if I have to I guess.

Imagine if we ware both  on the same island, we will be unstoppable forging and crafting   

 

[Patrick Carlson]

Thanks everyone for the spirited discussion here. A couple of points:

First, no, there is not and has never been a forge in the Dam. Again, I'm not sure where this idea surfaced. 

Second, we while appreciate your passion, please keep it friendly, even when you passionately disagree. Thanks! 

 

[EternityTide]

I think Patrick's reaction was something akin to this:

However, I do believe that forges need to be more distributed - maybe not to the same standard, but having to travel all the way to desolation point to craft arrows is ridiculous, quite frankly. Perhaps three regions, including Desolation Point, should house forges, with DP holding the superior forge - the other two being capable of producing arrowheads, but not to the same quality. We could have one of the following possibilities:
A) the arrowheads wear down more easily
B) the arrowheads are heavier (colder forges result in greater difficulty shaping metal, so crude arrowheads would be produced as a result), and would have different flight characteristics
C) the arrowheads take longer to produce.
Either way, this reduces DPs monopoly on metal-smithing, whilst still giving it a reason to be journeyed to. You can craft arrows at whatever forge you want, but the best arrowheads come from the DP forge.
My suggested locations are:

• Carter Hydro Dam (ramshackle forge deep in the lower turbine room - yes, I am retconning my forum posts!)
• Timberwolf Mountain - I'm not overly familiar with this region, having never visited it, however it creates a nice bit of space between the CHD and DP forges, creating a large triangle in the world map. This way, forge density is kept low.