Gunpowder! Making it the old way, with a manure

[vancopower]

An article I came across describes the art of gunpowder making like this:

Quote

Gunpowder is comprised of 75% potassium nitrate, 15% charcoal and 10% sulfur. While charcoal (historically made with wood) and sulfur (historically dug from the ground around volcanoes) have been relatively easy to obtain, potassium nitrate is not commonly found in nature. Early sources were found in caves where guano (bat poo) had combined with minerals from the cave walls; soaking and filtering the guano was an effective method, but there are only so many caves, and so much bat poo.

Quote

Survivalists and gun enthusiasts today enjoy (well, maybe) making their own gunpowder. For the potassium nitrate, one recommended process is to put a lot of manure in a large drum with a drain, valve and filter screen installed at the bottom. Pee into it. Freely. Then add water for a total of about 300 gallons of yuck. Place it in a safe spot (far away from the house, if possible). After 10 months, pour it out onto shallow trays to dry.

So I was thinking although this method is somewhat disgusting, It would fit very nicely in TLD survival experience.  First of all gunpowder should be hard to make, at least 275 days should pass in order for you to obtain Potassium nitrate, the other ingredients can be found in the mines.  Second if we get a horse we can obtain the manure from it, another perfect fit. Finally potassium nitrate could be found in some caves and there are lots of caves in TLD  so here it is another reason to go to caves. Also I believe that during the American civil wars they used similar method to make potassium nitrate, in barns and farms. History can't be wrong.  I'm curious to see what the community will say about this, and please focus on the survival part not the  yucky part.

Here is the whole article for those who like to read more:

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/04/urine-facts/

[ChillPlayer]

This, is actually a very nice idea, I'd be all for it. Maybe lessen the days to get the nitrate to around 100 in Stalker and 20 for Voyageur/Pilgrim but other than that I'd prefer this method overfinding tons of bullets everywhere

[vancopower]

1 hour ago, ChillPlayer said:

This, is actually a very nice idea, I'd be all for it. Maybe lessen the days to get the nitrate to around 100 in Stalker and 20 for Voyageur/Pilgrim but other than that I'd prefer this method overfinding tons of bullets everywhere

well you need other materials also to make bullets but, it's a start. Potassium nitrate can also be used for making fertilizers but who wants to farm when you can shoot stuff  

This could be another type of challenge when seasons will be introduced. For example when the weather is hot and snow finally melts you can plant  instead of hunting for meat so instead gunpowder you can make  fertilizer with the same mechanic. 100 days should be sufficient I think, but then you have to dry it again for 2-3 days and all you need is some coal and sulfur and you have gunpowder.

[SteelFire]

Interesting idea, but a lot more complicated than simply being able to make simple black powder. So, do we then require a black powder rifle and what do we use for making shot balls? Would they require the forge or do we somehow have enough low-melt alloy lying around to make balls from? Cloth for wadding? Or are you proposing we be able to make our own proper reloads for the existing rifle? Same issue of materials and manufacture for the slugs. If you're proposing we recycle slugs, then there needs to be a mechanic for recovering them from the animals, then what about misses or slugs that shatter? You'll still eventually run out. Then where do we make reloads? How many times can we recycle a casing before it's no longer suitable for reloading? If we have reloaded rounds, then we also definitely need a skill system, because inexperience at doing this can easily lead to rounds exploding in the gun when fired or more likely jamming and damaging the weapon.

I'd rather see an NPC, when we get them, who's specialty is reloads and we trade with them. Much less complicated.

[Ruruwawa]

2 hours ago, SteelFire said:

I'd rather see an NPC, when we get them, who's specialty is reloads and we trade with them. Much less complicated.

Me too

[Aelaera]

Yeah while I like the idea... I'm fairly certain the average Joe doesn't know how to make gunpowder. I would prefer than an NPC trader or something was integrated. 

[Wastelander]

I'm not a gun person because the laws of where I live make that pretty hard, but I'm pretty much into the history of the military and technology. Anyway, take everything I say on this topic with more than a grain of salt.

Gunpowder, as described, is nowadays mostly used in fireworks, I think. It's got a couple of downsides to modern-day propellants - it produces smoke and, if created not under laboratory conditions, doesn't combust completely so it would degrade a rifle pretty fast. It's also weaker, so bullets made with gunpowder as a propellant carry less energy and would thus cause less tissue damage.

Modern day propellants (as in, late 20th century and after, which is plausible for TLD considering all the flat screens) is mostly based on high explosives such as RDX, which are near impossible to produce in the wild.

Also, a cartdridge is more than a casing, projectile and propellant - you also need a primer, which basically carries a primary explosive to set of the actual combustion of the propellant. It can be safely assumed that primers are impossible to manufacture in TLD conditions.

So, in my opinion - nope, gunpowder shouldn't be added to the game as a crafting ingredient for bullets. Now, if there was a musket or something like that (perhaps something that can fire paper bullets), this would be a whole different story. But for now, it wouldn't make sense.

[liam]

You can use your own manure to farm, the main reason we don't do it today is that it spreads disease, but it's only yours so the only diseases you would get are your own.

[vancopower]

On 13.5.2016 at 1:06 AM, SteelFire said:

Interesting idea, but a lot more complicated than simply being able to make simple black powder. So, do we then require a black powder rifle and what do we use for making shot balls? Would they require the forge or do we somehow have enough low-melt alloy lying around to make balls from? Cloth for wadding? Or are you proposing we be able to make our own proper reloads for the existing rifle? Same issue of materials and manufacture for the slugs. If you're proposing we recycle slugs, then there needs to be a mechanic for recovering them from the animals, then what about misses or slugs that shatter? You'll still eventually run out. Then where do we make reloads? How many times can we recycle a casing before it's no longer suitable for reloading? If we have reloaded rounds, then we also definitely need a skill system, because inexperience at doing this can easily lead to rounds exploding in the gun when fired or more likely jamming and damaging the weapon.

I'd rather see an NPC, when we get them, who's specialty is reloads and we trade with them. Much less complicated.

This topic was mostly about making gunpowder but it does not hurt to look at the whole process too. Since making modern bullets is difficult  I was thinking we can refill shotgun shells instead.

First we need shell cases which could be item that we can find and also recovered every time you shoot.

Second we need paper or tinder can be used which is not too difficult to find.

Third we need gunpowder which I explained already how can be made

Finally we need lead balls. We can also recover these from the prey we kill, but we can also make them with melting lead in the forge. Now where do we find lead you'll ask well car batteries can be scrapped for lead and we know that there are plenty of those around. 

This whole process is simple and it can be done with enough time I think, and it would be ton of fun too. Especially the part when you have to wait 100 days for the potassium nitrate to form. The game already uses complicated system to make arrows, with the saplings and arrowhead forging well this would be the next step. You've done great you have arrows and warm clothes  and now you can concentrate on making yourself even stronger by making gunpowder and reusing shells.  It is better than buying bullets at some NPC trader right?  Which I totally support there should be trading in the game, but only barter we don't need bottle caps in this game that would be lame.

Another use gunpowder could be flintlock guns, maybe the survivor could encounter a museum on his travels or some house that used to be owned by a guns collector so it doesn't have to be shotgun shells, we could make ammo for flintlock guns and muskets.

[Hotzn]

On 13.5.2016 at 10:24 PM, vancopower said:

An article I came across describes the art of gunpowder making like this:

So I was thinking although this method is somewhat disgusting, It would fit very nicely in TLD survival experience.  First of all gunpowder should be hard to make, at least 275 days should pass in order for you to obtain Potassium nitrate, the other ingredients can be found in the mines.  Second if we get a horse we can obtain the manure from it, another perfect fit. Finally potassium nitrate could be found in some caves and there are lots of caves in TLD  so here it is another reason to go to caves. Also I believe that during the American civil wars they used similar method to make potassium nitrate, in barns and farms. History can't be wrong.  I'm curious to see what the community will say about this, and please focus on the survival part not the  yucky part.

Here is the whole article for those who like to read more:

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/04/urine-facts/

Mechanics-wise this might make some sort of sense, but I really have to say that the game would lose a lot of credibility in my eyes if we were able to make gunpowder and rifle rounds. Knowing how to make gun powder in theory is one thing. But procuring the necessary chemical ingredients from raw nature? In the quality needed? Come on. It's pretty steep already that our good Will McKenzie knows how to make traps, clothes, a bow and arrows just like that.

[Graorgh]

I think we don't need to craft modern bullets, maybe would be enough crafting a rudimentary archebus or musket. These are simple fire weapons, not very difficult to make, at least for someone who is able to make its own gunpowder. The ammo for these weapons is simple, just a metal or stone ball. They wouldn't be very precise, but better than nothing

[Wastelander]

Wouldn't the cold make the (presumably metal) barrel more brittle? As far as I know, gunpoweder does not detonate, it deflagrates, thus the material around it would be subject to the sudden heat change for relatively long, right? Also, you'd need quite a lot of parts that can be difficult to come buy as you need a priming system et cetera, combined with very specific knowledge. I don't know much about gun culture in Canada (can someone maybe enlighten me per PM so I can use this for future discussions? Thanks in advance!), what are the odds of such a book lying around? Ill just assume that both our protagonist don't have improvising firearms as a hobby.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying it's impossible to do this, but with a bow already at hand, would it be worth the effort in-game, lore-wise and Hinterland-resources wise?

[beechel]

On the one hand I do see the appeal with being able to craft bullets, but on the other - I agree with @Wastelander  I believe that bullets should be finite, something to use in the earlier game, but ultimately the player needs to develop new more primitive way of hunting to survive long term. I think the ethos of the game is very much geared to 'living off the land' using natural materials and natural processes to survive. Crafting of bows and arrows, Snares, curing, I feel that what the game could do with, is not the ability to craft bullets, but the ability to craft other weapons and traps from the land. 

Someone mentioned a spear in another thread, I have also mentioned digging traps in the seasons thread (imagine goading a bear - it charges you and falls into your death trap!) Slingshots for birds.  I would like to see it go more primitive in terms of survival weapons.  The way I see it is that the rifle is there to sustain you whilst you cure and craft your alternative weapons and not as a long term solution. 

That said, the beauty of this game is that everyone has a different playing style and approach to survival.  With that in mind, you could use the good old argument - just because you can craft bullets, does not mean you have to.  For some, it may fit with their playing style and for others should such a mechanism be implemented - they could choose not to utilise it

[vancopower]

12 hours ago, Hotzn said:

Mechanics-wise this might make some sort of sense, but I really have to say that the game would lose a lot of credibility in my eyes if we were able to make gunpowder and rifle rounds. Knowing how to make gun powder in theory is one thing. But procuring the necessary chemical ingredients from raw nature? In the quality needed? Come on. It's pretty steep already that our good Will McKenzie knows how to make traps, clothes, a bow and arrows just like that.

I advise you to read the whole article before forming an opinion like this. Also there are plenty of discovery channel shows that describe how gunpowder or black powder was made in the American civil wars, so it is possible. Sulfur and coal can be found in nature and we need small portion of them in the mix, the trickiest part is Potassium nitrate, that what this article is all about.  Maybe Will McKenzie  will encounter some NPC's who will show him how to make gunpowder or find a book on explosives, and in truth if you have the ingredients it is not so hard to make, you just mix them up 10% charcoal 15% sulfur and 75% potassium nitrate there is no need for chemical filtering or other fancy equipment. Also in the road map the Devs already mentioned gun-smiting and ammo crafting, so if you had to choose would  you choose cool method like this or simple buy the ingredients from some merchant?

[Hotzn]

2 hours ago, vancopower said:

I advise you to read the whole article before forming an opinion like this. Also there are plenty of discovery channel shows that describe how gunpowder or black powder was made in the American civil wars, so it is possible. Sulfur and coal can be found in nature and we need small portion of them in the mix, the trickiest part is Potassium nitrate, that what this article is all about.  Maybe Will McKenzie  will encounter some NPC's who will show him how to make gunpowder or find a book on explosives, and in truth if you have the ingredients it is not so hard to make, you just mix them up 10% charcoal 15% sulfur and 75% potassium nitrate there is no need for chemical filtering or other fancy equipment. Also in the road map the Devs already mentioned gun-smiting and ammo crafting, so if you had to choose would  you choose cool method like this or simple buy the ingredients from some merchant?

I have read the whole article before forming my opinion, including the part about making brain cells from pee. Mind you, I took some chemistry lectures while I was at university, so I know what gunpowder consists of and how it works. Interestingly, I have also collected pure sulphur in nature once - on top of a volcano in Japan, where it just had precipitated on the ground from sulphuric fumes. Volcanoes are about the only places in nature where you would be able to harvest (almost) pure sulphur, and only under certain conditions (not every volcano will provide it, and not on every volcano that provides it will you be able to collect it). So unless we get a volcano in the game... our Will McKenzie must find or buy it. Making potassium nitrate from pee or dung is really quite difficult. You need a lot of knowledge and practice. I just don't find it credible in a Winter survival situation. If ammo crafting is on the roadmap then I hope we will be able to find premade gunpowder and casings and just need to put them together with the corresponding tools. I will be able to believe that.

[vancopower]

1 minute ago, Hotzn said:

I have read the whole article before forming my opinion, including the part about making brain cells from pee. Mind you, I took some chemistry lectures while I was at university, so I know what gunpowder consists of and how it works. Interestingly, I have also collected pure sulphur in nature once - on top of a volcano in Japan, where it just had precipitated on the ground from sulphuric fumes. Volcanoes are about the only places in nature where you would be able to harvest (almost) pure sulphur, and only under certain conditions (not every volcano will provide it, and not on every volcano that provides it will you be able to collect it). So unless we get a volcano in the game... our Will McKenzie must find or buy it. Making potassium nitrate from pee or dung is really quite difficult. You need a lot of knowledge and practice. I just don't find it credible in a Winter survival situation. If ammo crafting is on the roadmap then I hope we will be able to find premade gunpowder and casings and just need to put them together with the corresponding tools. I will be able to believe that.

Yes I agree with everything you say but, is it not nicer to have some depth in gunpowder making than just putting few items together? ok maybe the whole process is complicated but it can be polished out, and re-balanced. Don't get me wrong I am not against realism, on the contrary I would not suggested the idea in the first place if it did not hold some merit. Here is another alternative we can find potassium nitrate in bat caves, sulfur maybe bought from traders who travel from afar, and coal is already in the game.   

[SteelFire]

FYI, coal =/= charcoal in any way, shape or form. Real charcoal is made from a  process of smoldering down wood, in particular, good hardwood which we don't currently have in the game. If what we're really after is carbon, raw coal isn't even a great source of that either, due to contaminants, volatile gases, and ash content. There's no possible way we could process the coal to be better either, it takes high temp and pressures, and the resulting product is actually much harder carbon structure.

Also, how do you define 'traders who travel from afar' in TLD? We're on an island.

[Boston123]

It is important to note that the process that the OP links to creates one of the ingredients for black powder. Almost overwhelmingly (revolvers, lever-rifles and shotguns are pretty much it), you cannot use blackpowder in modern firearms. Blackpowder =\= modern smokeless powder. Using blackpowder in a modern firearm is asking for problems.

No, with the disaster, and the accompanying loss of intercontinental trade, the days of easy smokeless powder are over. Every bullet you fire decreases the supply.

And, while "modern" bullets can be reloaded, even that has problems. With "bottlenecked" cases, like in military rifles, the brass gets weaker over time (after a couple of firings), and eventually can't be reloaded. "Straight-walled" cases ,used in revolvers and magnums (.44-40, .38S/.357, .44 Magnum, etc), are much sturdier, and can be reloaded many more times (which is a big part of their appeal in real life). Primers are made using Fulminate of Mercury, 99% of which comes from China. How are you going to get it in TLD? Hint: You aren't. Smokeless powder basically requires a chemistry degree to make, not to mention hard-to-get and hazardous chemicals. Note: without primers, you aren't going to be reloading shotgun shells or straight-walled cases, either.

There is a reason blackpowder firearms and muzzleloaders are the weapons used by "real life" long-term preppers and survivalists, when they aren't using bows and spears. As above, you can make blackpowder using stuff you can find around the homestead (potassium nitrate from animal pens, or even human urine, charcoal from hardwood, and using powdered rust as a sulfur-equivalent)

Look up the "Apocalypse Logistics" trope on TV Tropes for more explanation. Obviously: WARNING, TV TROPES (it will ruin your life)

[cekivi]

Hey All.

Try not to get too personal in the comments. The real life versus game world arguments tend to quickly get out of hand. 

Personally, I would not want to see black powder introduced into the game as it is now. Because, as many people outlined above, modern firearms cannot handle black powder and it is one thing to read a recipe and quite another to do it. Reloading is far more realistic since people do do it in rural areas (like the island) and would have the tools, equipment and knowledge to do so. For this to be practical, the game would have to allow you to pick up spent rifle rounds and track the number of times they are reloaded since they will eventually fail due to metal fatigue. If at some later date muzzleloaders are added to the game then maybe black powder would be useful.

 

[vancopower]

7 hours ago, Boston123 said:

It is important to note that the process that the OP links to creates one of the ingredients for black powder. Almost overwhelmingly (revolvers, lever-rifles and shotguns are pretty much it), you cannot use blackpowder in modern firearms. Blackpowder =\= modern smokeless powder. Using blackpowder in a modern firearm is asking for problems.

No, with the disaster, and the accompanying loss of intercontinental trade, the days of easy smokeless powder are over. Every bullet you fire decreases the supply.

And, while "modern" bullets can be reloaded, even that has problems. With "bottlenecked" cases, like in military rifles, the brass gets weaker over time (after a couple of firings), and eventually can't be reloaded. "Straight-walled" cases ,used in revolvers and magnums (.44-40, .38S/.357, .44 Magnum, etc), are much sturdier, and can be reloaded many more times (which is a big part of their appeal in real life). Primers are made using Fulminate of Mercury, 99% of which comes from China. How are you going to get it in TLD? Hint: You aren't. Smokeless powder basically requires a chemistry degree to make, not to mention hard-to-get and hazardous chemicals. Note: without primers, you aren't going to be reloading shotgun shells or straight-walled cases, either.

There is a reason blackpowder firearms and muzzleloaders are the weapons used by "real life" long-term preppers and survivalists, when they aren't using bows and spears. As above, you can make blackpowder using stuff you can find around the homestead (potassium nitrate from animal pens, or even human urine, charcoal from hardwood, and using powdered rust as a sulfur-equivalent)

Look up the "Apocalypse Logistics" trope on TV Tropes for more explanation. Obviously: WARNING, TV TROPES (it will ruin your life)

I advise you to read the whole thread before posting comments like this, if you read the posts above you will notice that the main goal of this topic is creative way to make gunpowder not mass production of bullets. And remember why we are all here on this forum to help the developers shape TLD in to better game, not state the facts of life right?

I'am sure that everything you are posting is true, but it is not for this topic. Otherwise you are welcomed to produce your ideas on how do you think gunpowder making should be in TLD.

 

P.S. My uncle never used Primers to make shells he used paper to separate the buckshot from the gunpowder, and he was huntsman for 50 years. He reused the same shells for years.

[cekivi]

To be fair, gunpowder has limited uses. Since explosions and launching projectiles are the two best known advocating for a feature not to be included because you don't see any applications for it is still on topic. It's my main criticism as well. Even if blackpowder makes it into the game, what purpose would it serve?

25 minutes ago, vancopower said:

P.S. My uncle never used Primers to make shells he used paper to separate the buckshot from the gunpowder, and he was huntsman for 50 years. He reused the same shells for years.

This puzzled me. What gun uses shells without primers? You need something to set the gunpowder off unless your uncle had a flintlock or percussion cap shotgun...

[Boston123]

14 hours ago, vancopower said:

I advise you to read the whole thread before posting comments like this, if you read the posts above you will notice that the main goal of this topic is creative way to make gunpowder not mass production of bullets. And remember why we are all here on this forum to help the developers shape TLD in to better game, not state the facts of life right?

I'am sure that everything you are posting is true, but it is not for this topic. Otherwise you are welcomed to produce your ideas on how do you think gunpowder making should be in TLD.

 

P.S. My uncle never used Primers to make shells he used paper to separate the buckshot from the gunpowder, and he was huntsman for 50 years. He reused the same shells for years.

I read it, both the article and the thread.

The rifle we use in TLD fires bullets that use smokeless powder. The rifle was designed for use with smokeless powder. Chances are, it wouldn't really work with black powder, Blackpowder burns completely differently from smokeless powder. 

GUnpowder making shouldn't be in TLD. Even blackpowder making has a lot of variables. Do you know how to make sure the grains are of similar size? Do you know what size they have to be for proper combustion? DO you know how to make sure your blackpowder is pure? If it isn't, you are going to get a lot of smoke, and not so much bang. 

If a cartridge-based bullet doesn't have a primer, then it won't fire.

 The Primer is the piece on the bottom of the bullet that, when struck with the firing pin, ignites the powder. 

[vancopower]

19 hours ago, cekivi said:

To be fair, gunpowder has limited uses. Since explosions and launching projectiles are the two best known advocating for a feature not to be included because you don't see any applications for it is still on topic. It's my main criticism as well. Even if blackpowder makes it into the game, what purpose would it serve?

This puzzled me. What gun uses shells without primers? You need something to set the gunpowder off unless your uncle had a flintlock or percussion cap shotgun...

Well I can't ask him now he is dead, he used regular double barrel shotgun. maybe he recovered the primers too I don't know much about guns but I remember seeing him make the shells in the garage.  I think he used the powder from the matches too, could that be used somehow instead of primer. Now I will never know. I'll ask my cousins tomorrow and get to the bottom of this  

[vancopower]

7 hours ago, Boston123 said:

I read it, both the article and the thread.

The rifle we use in TLD fires bullets that use smokeless powder. The rifle was designed for use with smokeless powder. Chances are, it wouldn't really work with black powder, Blackpowder burns completely differently from smokeless powder. 

GUnpowder making shouldn't be in TLD. Even blackpowder making has a lot of variables. Do you know how to make sure the grains are of similar size? Do you know what size they have to be for proper combustion? DO you know how to make sure your blackpowder is pure? If it isn't, you are going to get a lot of smoke, and not so much bang. 

If a cartridge-based bullet doesn't have a primer, then it won't fire.

 The Primer is the piece on the bottom of the bullet that, when struck with the firing pin, ignites the powder. 

Well it is in the road map, unless they change their minds we can try to help by submitting ideas right ?  Even if they implement this method as it is  with no primers with no fancy science process it would still be the most realistic process of making gunpowder compared to all the other survival games, where you just mix sulfur and coal and not even in the correct amount and you got gunpowder. However even if we can't make Shells, bullets and other type modern ammo the idea about raiding a museum and finding civil war muskets is still plausible we can use black powder on these. 

[cekivi]

Yes, speculation is good but I think most people assume the roadmap is referring either to gun customization (my theory) or to reloading with scavenged (i.e. store bought) materials. Black powder may be useful for non-firearms purposes. Farmers used to use it to remove stumps after all. But even then I still see a very limited use for it in game...

Additionally, it's charcoal, not coal, that's used in black powder.