Hopeless rescue feedback

[Jolan]

I completed the challenge, and while it did keep my attention there wasn't any real satisfaction in completing it.  Basically, completion was so overwhelmingly driven by luck that my cleverness or ability or lack there of really didn't play into my completion or failures.  OK, that one time I walked off the cliff in the dark probably had nothing to do with luck... I'm not certain if this is a flaw necessarily - it could be I simple don't like luck driven challenges.  

[Hotzn]

Hmmm... your post is cryptic.

[SteelFire]

4 minutes ago, Hotzn said:

Hmmm... your post is cryptic.

I second that.

What's luck driven about it? It's totally about knowing your way around the zones and character management.

[Aelaera]

Agreed, I don't think it's anymore RNG than anything else in the game. It's about knowing how to get from Point A to Point B to Point C while moving as quickly as you can. There is a certain element of luck, like in any part of the game, in how the weather will treat you, but in my play through (which I haven't yet completed) I've had to travel through a blizzard that rolled through Mystery Lake as I made my way to get the flare. It was tough and dropped me down to about 25% condition since I had to do so after getting into a tousle with a wolf and had no time to make a bandage, but in the end it saved me possibly eight hours or so that would have been spent huddled in the Forestry Outlook. It's definitely a risk and reward challenge, even more so than Hunted. 

[ShawnB]

RNG could give you the short stick if you get a lot of zero visibility weather but I think this challenge could be a lot more difficult. If timber wolf peak didn't have a huge stash of supplies then that would make things a bit more challenging. Once you are well equipped Things are too easy in this game. I explored 95% of the world in about 15 days but I think I did a timber wolf peak rush at the very start.

[selfless]

I think the challenges specifically could benefit from individually placed loot and a fixed weather sequence, perhaps even some linear pathing.  Then end these games when time runs out.  Would make comparing the relatively short challenges relevant from run-to-run.  Obviously then there would be an optimal solution to discover and it would be the same one every time.

[cekivi]

2 hours ago, selfless said:

I think the challenges specifically could benefit from individually placed loot and a fixed weather sequence, perhaps even some linear pathing.  Then end these games when time runs out.  Would make comparing the relatively short challenges relevant from run-to-run.  Obviously then there would be an optimal solution to discover and it would be the same one every time.

True. The only elements that greatly impacted my challenge times were weather and wolf/bear encounters. Since those are both random if you wanted a true speedrun they should be accounted for. The rest of the challenge is just planning the optimal route and minimal required equipment.

[SteelFire]

2 hours ago, selfless said:

I think the challenges specifically could benefit from individually placed loot and a fixed weather sequence, perhaps even some linear pathing.  Then end these games when time runs out.  Would make comparing the relatively short challenges relevant from run-to-run.  Obviously then there would be an optimal solution to discover and it would be the same one every time.

Which would make them absolutely no fun and eliminate them being a challenge at all. It would eliminate player knowledge and skill as factors. Let's face it, what really makes them a challenge is the unpredictable elements. Calorie consumption is minimal, you don't get exhausted as readily, and, at least when I did this, the wolves ran from me at least half the time. If loot was fixed drops, weather was fixed, and there was a 'perfect' path, then these wouldn't be much more than tutorials. I think adding a selectable difficulty level to the challenges, and have them work like sandbox difficulties, would be far more interesting.

 

While that would certainly address the OP's claim, it would be boring. The OP is claiming that simply being able to complete the challenge on time at all is based on luck. Of course, OP hasn't provided any additional clarification as to why they feel that way either.

[Jolan]

On 5/8/2016 at 7:17 PM, SteelFire said:

I second that.

What's luck driven about it? It's totally about knowing your way around the zones and character management.

Not really - I planned out my route and how I was going to manage things, I tried the challenge about 8 times, did the same things each time except the last two times and got no where due to inopportune wolves, storms, low percentage food, bad clothes - all things I had no control over.  Last two times I didn't do any of the clever things just drove straight for the objective - 1st one had a massive blizzard on TM and a pack of wolves get in the way but came close, 2nd one all wolf encounters except fluffy were at a distance, I didn't even find a weapon until I was climbing TM (my fluffy fight was with bare hands), found ample food over 35%, all blizzards where during my chosen sleep times etc.  Got the challenge done in 5 1/2 days and did nothing clever.  Even detoured a bit to watch a pretty sunrise

[Jolan]

On 5/9/2016 at 6:33 PM, cekivi said:

True. The only elements that greatly impacted my challenge times were weather and wolf/bear encounters. Since those are both random if you wanted a true speedrun they should be accounted for. The rest of the challenge is just planning the optimal route and minimal required equipment.

didn't really plan for the successful trip - just stuck to the roads wherever possible and used what I found on the way.  Only places I looted thoroughly was the starting cabin, the dam for food and the plane for food - and that last place wasn't really necessary - had plenty of food but it was too cold for walking.

the railtracks count as a road.

[Jolan]

On 5/9/2016 at 4:23 PM, selfless said:

I think the challenges specifically could benefit from individually placed loot and a fixed weather sequence, perhaps even some linear pathing.  Then end these games when time runs out.  Would make comparing the relatively short challenges relevant from run-to-run.  Obviously then there would be an optimal solution to discover and it would be the same one every time.

Its a good idea, but I'm not certain if there would be truly an optimal route it could depend alot.  Like did you find boatloads of coffee? Then take the routes with bunches of climbing.  No coffee then take the routes with as little climbing as possible.. etc.

[Jolan]

On 5/9/2016 at 6:58 PM, SteelFire said:

Which would make them absolutely no fun and eliminate them being a challenge at all. It would eliminate player knowledge and skill as factors. Let's face it, what really makes them a challenge is the unpredictable elements. Calorie consumption is minimal, you don't get exhausted as readily, and, at least when I did this, the wolves ran from me at least half the time. If loot was fixed drops, weather was fixed, and there was a 'perfect' path, then these wouldn't be much more than tutorials. I think adding a selectable difficulty level to the challenges, and have them work like sandbox difficulties, would be far more interesting.

 

While that would certainly address the OP's claim, it would be boring. The OP is claiming that simply being able to complete the challenge on time at all is based on luck. Of course, OP hasn't provided any additional clarification as to why they feel that way either.

Actually (if I'm OP) that's not what I'm claiming.  If you want to know what I think be nice instead of nasty and I might actually have a conversation about it.

[ChillPlayer]

You know you can put several quotes into one post instead of making several posts with one quote?

But to address your point: this challenge is a speedrun challenge (like the original forum challenge was). They gave it a fair limit of 7 days so most can complete it but if you really want to test your skills and eliminate RNGesus almost completely, try to make it in one day

[SteelFire]

3 hours ago, Jolan said:

Not really - I planned out my route and how I was going to manage things, I tried the challenge about 8 times, did the same things each time except the last two times and got no where due to inopportune wolves, storms, low percentage food, bad clothes - all things I had no control over.  Last two times I didn't do any of the clever things just drove straight for the objective - 1st one had a massive blizzard on TM and a pack of wolves get in the way but came close, 2nd one all wolf encounters except fluffy were at a distance, I didn't even find a weapon until I was climbing TM (my fluffy fight was with bare hands), found ample food over 35%, all blizzards where during my chosen sleep times etc.  Got the challenge done in 5 1/2 days and did nothing clever.  Even detoured a bit to watch a pretty sunrise

Sorry, but none of that is luck. Those are the same challenges you face in the sandbox, they're a normal part of the game. Wolves in the way? Detour or deal with them. They're as likely to run away as fight you in the challenge. Blizzard? Your choice to hunker down or push through on easily visible paths versus cross country. Bad clothes? Make repairs, stop frequently to start fires and warm up. Heat up food and drinks to help maintain temp. Use flares, lamps, torches, brands for extra warmth. Low % foods isn't a stopper. Some foods it doesn't matter, some it does. If you're going to stop and sleep, that's the time to consume any questionable food, since you're going to rest anyway. The quicker you finish the challenge, the less food you need, especially since the calorie consumption during the challenge is reduced.

Had to deal with all of that when I ran the challenge, that's what makes it a challenge. 4 days, 23 hrs, 16 mins the first and only time I've run it. I could have cut at least a day off that too, but I spent too much time in the beginning gathering food, because I didn't realize I didn't need it. Pushed through blizzards using visible roads and hunkering against rocks and trees to warm up. Same stuff you've got to survive in the sandbox.

[cekivi]

If you just want to complete the challenge then the random elements are fine. They even out over 7 days and even if you make lots of mistakes (like I did!) you can still finish the challenge. If you're going for a true speedrun (less than 3 days) than the random elements (e.g. whether or not Fluffy is in the dam) make a huge difference.

[Ruruwawa]

Does Fluffy really matter?  I'm not going to break any speed records (I'm too cautious by nature).  But for Fluffy I just pop a flare and run past her.  Other than a quick visual check for stims I skip looting the top of the damn, but I usually have better luck with the good stuff at the signal tower anyway.

[cekivi]

Remember, with the new flare mechanics flares are no longer guaranteed to work. I have been jumped by Fluffy even while brandishing a flare. And another time I scared Fluffy off with a lantern.

I don't disagree with you. The random elements are what makes the challenge, challenging. But if you want to have records, leader boards and the like it needs to be the same for everyone. You can't claim to be the fastest if the #2 person had non-stop blizzards and you had sunny weather and no wolves the whole way through for instance.

TL;DR: I'm fine with the challenge as is. If there were leaderboards than randomness should be minimized.

[Ruruwawa]

24 minutes ago, cekivi said:

TL;DR: I'm fine with the challenge as is. If there were leaderboards than randomness should be minimized.

I don't disagree with this.  Leaderboards for this game -- challenges or sandbox -- are tricky.  I don't think you can remove luck from it entirely though, or it wouldn't feel like TLD any more.

I guess I've just been lucky with Fluffy.  Because I beeline for the lower dam I always catch her in the big room the the fire barrel.  That might be part of it.  She has to turn a lot to run away, like she reaches the end of her patrol path very quickly.  Plus there are good obstacles to break line of sight.  It gives me time to sprint for the hatch.

[ChillPlayer]

Well part of competing for the best times is also quitting the game prematurely and try again if weather or loot makes it impossible to reach a best time. I remember a Lady here in the forum now being a Moderator who, when doing the Sea to Summit Challenge (the original Hopeless Rescue) used to quit the game when she wouldn't find at least 3 packs of coffee in CH and start over - this technique made her Queen of the Summit for quite some time

But the more you do the same challenge the less loot or luck dependend you are, you learn to deal with pretty much everything. And that's why I think LBs do work for challenges because no one forces you do go on if luck is not on your side, eventually it will.

[cekivi]

19 minutes ago, ChillPlayer said:

Well part of competing for the best times is also quitting the game prematurely and try again if weather or loot makes it impossible to reach a best time. I remember a Lady here in the forum now being a Moderator who, when doing the Sea to Summit Challenge (the original Hopeless Rescue) used to quit the game when she wouldn't find at least 3 packs of coffee in CH and start over - this technique made her Queen of the Summit for quite some time

But the more you do the same challenge the less loot or luck dependend you are, you learn to deal with pretty much everything. And that's why I think LBs do work for challenges because no one forces you do go on if luck is not on your side, eventually it will.

You're thinking of @Scyzara 

Difference of opinion then. If I'm competing against myself I don't care about the RNG. If I'm competing for a leaderboard I would find it more annoying. But, again, that may be due to my play style: I tend not to like quitting.

[Scyzara]

Oh, I see I have been summoned! Thank Chuck it's Friday, holidays are ahead and I'm in the mood to share my royal wisdom with everyone. 

I guess I've actually learned three important things during the Sea to summit challenge. Number one is pretty obvious: Practice makes perfect. The more often you repeat a challenge, the better your time will become. Not only because you optimize your route and strategies, but especially because you become more and more relaxed  and don't panic any more whenever something goes wrong. 

2. Talking to others about their routes, playstyles or certain tricks they use is often extremely helpful. At least half of the ideas that helped me to win the challenge weren't my own, but the collective discoveries of all participants together. Even if you already believe you've reached your limit, there's almost certainly another detail you might be able to improve. You're probably just not aware of it, so don't hesitate to ask others for their advice. 

The third lesson I learned is a definitely less obvious: The relevance of "random" events (e.g. weather, wildlife attacks, etc.) gradually decreases as your beginning to approximate the best time theoretically possible. This one sound totally counterintuitive, yet I'm almost certain it's true. The reason is that - in order to be able to pull off a really extraordinary good time - you need to have a lot of experience anyway. And the more experience you have, the more you're able to compensate every unfortunate random event that might happen to you.

My last and best run (number 9 in total from those I continued beyond CH iirc) happened under pretty horrible circumstances - I was walking through a blizzard and against headwinds almost all the time on my way back through PV and CH, found really few tins of coffee in the plane wreck and even got jumped by a wolf once - and yet I did it three hours  faster than any other run before. If you know your route even if you don't see anything, whiteout blizzards become pretty much ignorable. And if you've learned to find a good balance between prevention and acceptance of freezing, that's also going to save you a lot of time. Health deterioration isn't the end of the world - hypothermia, however, is.

One needs to learn which things may be ignored and which need to be dealt with. And the only way to learn this is keep trying. 

 

 

[Tbone555]

10 minutes ago, Scyzara said:

Oh, I see I have been summoned! Thank Chuck it's Friday, holidays are ahead and I'm in the mood to share my royal wisdom with everyone. 

 

why did i laugh so hard when i read that?? xD

[Scyzara]

Because you're a Supernatural fan like me? 

[ChillPlayer]

35 minutes ago, Scyzara said:

Because you're a Supernatural fan like me? 

Ha! I knew that's where the Chuck reference came from I'd really love to read his autobiography, hehe

[Jolan]

On 5/13/2016 at 0:55 PM, Ruruwawa said:

Does Fluffy really matter?  I'm not going to break any speed records (I'm too cautious by nature).  But for Fluffy I just pop a flare and run past her.  Other than a quick visual check for stims I skip looting the top of the damn, but I usually have better luck with the good stuff at the signal tower anyway.

If I had a flare I would have done that it works well - but I hadn't found any flares and she just curled her lip at my feeble brand.  If I'd been able to make it to the fire barrel - that tends to work well but in this case the luck of the draw was she was at me as soon as I entered the second room.  so tussled a bit, then ran like mad for the bulkhead.  Fight probably would have been easier if I'd found any weapons.