McGuffin

[327] Coffee and adrenaline are overpowered

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I finally found the time to make the rescue challenge I finished it in 3 days, very fun, very engaging, I think I can do it in 2 day +-.

This kind of challenge really change how we play, but at some point I am not sure it's totally in the right "mood".
I mean: I was able to do the summit to the lighthouse in one go, running all the time.  That doesnt feel right.

I had 4 stimpaks and a load of Coffee. I made 15 cups at the summit (since there is a container full of coffee up there), then I ran, drinking and shooting myself all along. I just made some few minutes breaks,  just the time to cook hot coffee and protect me from cold and hypothermia

I think this should be balanced at some point.
We should not be able to take more than one stimpak without having to sleep to recover the fatigue and maybe a shoot should also take some condition away (I would say -33%)
Same for the coffee, you can drink as long as you want, and practically refill your entire fatigue bar. Also if you drink regularily you stay in relatively good condition since this prevent the fatigue to drop too fast. This should be  capped, maybe the effect should work for 3 coffees / days maximum.

 

(Edit, was in 332, not 327)

 

Edited by McGuffin
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Agreed, for sure.

I also think that the heat gain from coffee and other hot drinks shouldn't be able to be stacked beyond maybe 2 or 3 cups. It feels like cheating.

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4 hours ago, McGuffin said:

Same for the coffee, you can drink as long as you want, and practically refill your entire fatigue bar. Also if you drink regularily you stay in relatively good condition since this prevent the fatigue to drop too fast. This should be  capped, maybe the effect should work for 3 coffees / days maximum.

I had no idea coffee could be used in this way.  I guess it is not as useless I thought...

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12 hours ago, McGuffin said:

I think this should be balanced at some point.
We should not be able to take more than one stimpak without having to sleep to recover the fatigue and maybe a shoot should also take some condition away (I would say -33%)
Same for the coffee, you can drink as long as you want, and practically refill your entire fatigue bar. Also if you drink regularily you stay in relatively good condition since this prevent the fatigue to drop too fast. This should be  capped, maybe the effect should work for 3 coffees / days maximum.

Just for clarification: Would you rather like to have these limitations for challenge modes only or would you like them to be introduced in the sandbox as well?:normal:

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12 hours ago, McGuffin said:


We should not be able to take more than one stimpak without having to sleep to recover the fatigue and maybe a shoot should also take some condition away (I would say -33%)

 

Losing condition from a stim wouldn't work, because one of the main purposes of using it is for the condition gain that it gives you if you're blacking out in single-figures and need to get to safety. Perhaps if you use more than one stim within a set time period, it could knock condition off; but not first time.

Edit: Sorry, perhaps that's what you meant?

Edited by Pillock

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32 minutes ago, Scyzara said:

Just for clarification: Would you rather like to have these limitations for challenge modes only or would you like them to be introduced in the sandbox as well?:normal:

I think some changes are necessary in both modes, and at least in stalker and challenge for sure.

25 minutes ago, Pillock said:

Edit: Sorry, perhaps that's what you meant?

Yes I meant *after* of course.

And yes,  the solution could be:
The first stimpak works as it is now, but if you take another stimpak without restoring your fatigue bar by sleeping (not coffee) it puts you at 10% condition when it wears off.
So you have to take care of you at some point if you are addicted ;)

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What about having an ailment that you get a few hours after having coffee, which requires a few hours rest to clear? It speeds up fatigue loss and dehydration (coffee is a diuretic). That way you can abuse coffee, but you will have to pay for it. 

It's not exactly how any ailments work currently, but that could be the interesting twist - the malus becomes stronger the more coffees you have, so at some point the fatigue benefits are outweighed by the dehydration and increased fatigue loss. 

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Well for the challenges they are very strong. If you want to make a run on the top times for the challenges, you will need to have stims and coffee. Overall, i dont have the feeling that they are overpowered. Coffee and stims are limited items. So no, they are far from overpowered.

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Coffee and stims are not scarce at all, I find plenty of them on the long run, besides, their availability is random, so I don't feel the "rarity" as a solution.
It just not feels right to be able to run across the map during ... days...  just because you have coffee and stims.

To me, this really litteraly removes some important needs of the survival aspect of the game. Challenge or not.

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10 minutes ago, McGuffin said:

Coffee and stims are not scarce at all, I find plenty of them on the long run, besides, their availability is random, so I don't feel the "rarity" as a solution.
It just not feels right to be able to run across the map during ... days...  just because you have coffee and stims.

To me, this really litteraly removes some important needs of the survival aspect of the game. Challenge or not.

 If you use the same strategy for a long term sandbox run that you use for a speedrun up the mountain you are sure to find very different results. I would like you to clarify exactly what 'important needs' have been removed by the addition of stims and your discovery of the effects of coffee (which has been in game a long time no?)

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oh, I didn't discover the coffee right now, I just never tried to exploit its effect before  
And now with stims on top, the problem seems more obvious.

To answer to your question, this removes, for example, the preparation and the spirit of any long travel. 
Just find few stimpaks, and prepare yourself a load of coffee, you can go wherever you want, you dont need anything else except few chocolate bars.
I just tried, I started from the farmhouse in Pleasant valley and I reached the summit in TWM in a single run, without having to sleep at all. I'd say: It lacks some kind of magic ;)
(of course I can choose to not use that, but, you know, what can be exploited will be exploited)

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I just have a hard time seeing the effect on sandbox play as justification for a coffee/stim nerf/debuff or whatever. I really don't think much changed. Your ability to move quickly across a large portion of the map has always been present - up until the addition of the challenges it was of little prudence though. Why beat up your clothes and burn up all your flares just to get there a little quicker? 

Now for coffee and challenge mode I agree bunches. If you want a speedrun - keep rerolling until trappers has coffee and a parka in the safe and zoom off you go. That isn't fun and when a game forces you to do stuff that isn't fun to remain competitive I don't like it. The stims on the other hand I think are pretty balanced. Without a coffee/stim combo the exhaustion at the end of the stim and the accompanying condition loss make them detrimental to anyone trying to keep moving.  

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1 hour ago, McGuffin said:

I just tried, I started from the farmhouse in Pleasant valley and I reached the summit in TWM in a single run, without having to sleep at all. I'd say: It lacks some kind of magic ;)
(of course I can choose to not use that, but, you know, what can be exploited will be exploited)

Why do you consider the use of coffee an "exploit"? o.O

It was almost certainly designed precisely for the purpose to make long travels easier and to get you out of emergency situations when you're exhausted. The mechanics are neither new, nor did they change during the last patch. Coffee has worked like this als long as I remember. 

Besides, the amount of coffee in the game is limited. In Stalker, you usually find less than 40 packages (200 cups) on all maps together. That's enough for 5-10 really long trips and then you're out of coffee forever. If coffee was a renewable resource I might tend to agree to its overpoweredness, but as it stands I'm fine with the current mechanics.

I can't really confirm stims being overly abundant either (from my own experiences at least). I've yet to find more than 2 of them in my current game and I've looted all of TWM and half of ML so far. I guess their scarcity probably depends a lot on the mode one plays (and on rng luck ofc).

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4 minutes ago, Scyzara said:

Why do you consider the use of coffee an "exploit"? o.O

 

Not really the coffee itself (even if it could be limited at some point, being an old mechanic doesnt mean it should stay, there are precedents), but stim+coffee is for sure overpowered. 
I have already explain why, I dont feel the need to repeat myself.

I think this probably should at least be balanced for the challenge mode, and the sandbox could benefit from that too.

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3 minutes ago, Scyzara said:

I can't really confirm stims being overly abundant either (from my own experiences at least). I've yet to find more than 2 of them in my current game and I've looted all of TWM and half of ML so far. I guess their scarcity probably depends a lot on the mode one plays (and on rng luck ofc).

On my last Voyageur run I found 6 on Mystery Lake, I think - maybe it was 5, can't remember; in the Stalker one I'm now playing, I think I've been everywhere in ML and I have 2 of them.

I don't think that's particularly rare, but maybe they're scarcer on other maps? I don't really think there should be more than about five in the entire game environment, in all honesty. But perhaps Hinterland put more of them in for their initial implementation than they intend for the longer term, so that us lot would be able to find them more easily in order to test them out and give feedback?

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1 hour ago, McGuffin said:

I just tried, I started from the farmhouse in Pleasant valley and I reached the summit in TWM in a single run, without having to sleep at all. I'd say: It lacks some kind of magic ;)

Seriously?  What the heck?

I'm joining the people who were against stims after Tireless Menace was released.  Is this how people are getting 7 hour runs in the Hopeless Rescue?  No wonder my time was so slow in comparison, but at least I did it without drugs I suppose.

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I found enough Stims doing my Hopeless Rescue challenge that I started leaving them behind...

Clearly I should have just used them and sprinted non-stop. As it was, even though it did take me nearly the full seven days, I think the drug free way is still better. As it was, I still needed three stims to survive two falls and a bear attack so they're definitely still vital pieces of equipment.

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Maybe my english is not good enough, but, just to be clear: I am not saying that stims should be removed, there are great in many situations, I just say they need to be tuned down a bit, especially when we use them one after the other.

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13 minutes ago, McGuffin said:

Maybe my english is not good enough, but, just to be clear: I am not saying that stims should be removed, there are great in many situations, I just say they need to be tuned down a bit, especially when we use them one after the other.

I agree. They work exactly as intended to save your bacon... but there seems to be little (if any) repercussions to using them.

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On May 2, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Scyzara said:

Why do you consider the use of coffee an "exploit"? o.O

It was almost certainly designed precisely for the purpose to make long travels easier and to get you out of emergency situations when you're exhausted. The mechanics are neither new, nor did they change during the last patch. Coffee has worked like this als long as I remember. 

Besides, the amount of coffee

I can't really confirm stims being overly abundant either (from my own experiences at least). I've yet to find more than 2 of them in my current game and I've looted all of TWM and half of ML so far. I guess their scarcity probably depends a lot on the mode one plays (and on rng luck ofc).

I agree.  I've looted all of CH, DP, PV and TWM, minus the summit on stalker on my current playthrough.  I've got about 6 stims altogether, probably around 60 coffees.  For the long term it definitely won't last very long at all. 

Edited by Nasdaq401

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Well, maybe on the long term it's not an issue, but, on the long term we also get some better way to secure your "in game life" with crafting, so, loots are not that important after while.

What I mean, is that the most interesting (imho) survival aspect of the game is coming between day 1 and day ~30, and also (since the last patch) in the challenge modes. 
So, the short/medium term balance matters at this point.

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