Dahoset Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 HI I have a problem : i'd a got an axe, a knife and a grindstone. I wanted to sharp my axe ...i can t sharp to 100% at once... ok no problem, i sharp, sharp, sharp my axe to 100%, then I sharp my knife ...and my grindstone "disappear" (worn out) and now may axe is worn out ... so there no reason a grondstone worn out so quiclky... and because my axe wasn t sharp it s now worn out i can t repair it i just can leave it ( or harvest)... my proposition : make grindstone more hardwearing. possiblity to sharp to 100% at once even if we have to sharp fot 3 hours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancopower Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 4 hours ago, Dahoset said: HI I have a problem : i'd a got an axe, a knife and a grindstone. I wanted to sharp my axe ...i can t sharp to 100% at once... ok no problem, i sharp, sharp, sharp my axe to 100%, then I sharp my knife ...and my grindstone "disappear" (worn out) and now may axe is worn out ... so there no reason a grondstone worn out so quiclky... and because my axe wasn t sharp it s now worn out i can t repair it i just can leave it ( or harvest)... my proposition : make grindstone more hardwearing. possiblity to sharp to 100% at once even if we have to sharp fot 3 hours each sharpening reduces the whetstone by 5%, no matter if it was hatched or knife. You also have sharpening skill that increases the amount you can restore to given item for example first you repair your hatched with 3% with each sharpening after a while you start repairing it with 4% and if you increase the skill further you can repair it for 5% basically transferring the condition of the whetstone to the hatched. Same goes for the knife I only used hatched as example. The mechanics works fine given the fact that you can find whetstones easily by looting cabins and houses. My advise is explore more, stay out of wolves way get a lantern as soon as possible and use it look in to dark corners and shelves you will find tons of whetstones in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahoset Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 i know that but i find just 1 whetstone ( 35 days in coastal highmay ^^ ) I hope i ll find more next time i won t use my axe to unskin deer and wolf thanx for your ansxer and advices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancopower Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 4 hours ago, Dahoset said: i know that but i find just 1 whetstone ( 35 days in coastal highmay ^^ ) I hope i ll find more next time i won t use my axe to unskin deer and wolf thanx for your ansxer and advices There are other ways to survive without the hatched and knife, I don't want to spoil it for you I would say only this go to Desolation Point, since you are in CH already just pass the gas station and continue walking further away the lake should be on your right side. Go to DP and tell me what you'll find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirmagnos Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Whetstones are fairly ridiculous, true. But it seems that instead of making them last longer devs just made their chance to spawn higher in last updates. I started new game purely to see how game improved after update - 3 days in, already found 2 whetstones, on Stalker. Imo wheatstone should have far far far greater durability, and sharpening based mainly on skill(rather than amount of of whetstones), time it takes to sharpen an item(and give a friggin slider to determine how much i wannt to sharpen it, not 10 attempts for 4% durability restored each) and chance to decrease current and/or max durability(eg failure to properly sharpen item, damaging it instead - if you have never fked up, then you have never sharpened a thing). With as whetstone wears down time to sharpen item increasing. Same for rifle maintenance kit. It shouldnt be mainly about item, but rather ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancopower Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 2 hours ago, Dirmagnos said: Whetstones are fairly ridiculous, true. But it seems that instead of making them last longer devs just made their chance to spawn higher in last updates. I started new game purely to see how game improved after update - 3 days in, already found 2 whetstones, on Stalker. Imo wheatstone should have far far far greater durability, and sharpening based mainly on skill(rather than amount of of whetstones), time it takes to sharpen an item(and give a friggin slider to determine how much i wannt to sharpen it, not 10 attempts for 4% durability restored each) and chance to decrease current and/or max durability(eg failure to properly sharpen item, damaging it instead - if you have never fked up, then you have never sharpened a thing). With as whetstone wears down time to sharpen item increasing. Same for rifle maintenance kit. It shouldnt be mainly about item, but rather ability. You are still complaining for every little thing I see. Sometimes I wonder, why do you even bother playing It ??? if you don't like so many things just go shoot some zombies, or something there are tons of other survival games. Whetstones are fine the mechanic is fine, what do you expect to sharpen all the hatchets and knifes in the world with one whetstone. The whole purpose is to make you explore find more stuff, if you have one whetstone which degrades let's say 1% then what is the point of exploring you'll just sit in the base sharpening your tools which will almost never fail. Where is the fun in that? whetstone is temporary fix until you find other supplies and it works fine as it is. Don't confuse the new players they need guidance not your bad remarks for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boston123 Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 1 hour ago, vancopower said: You are still complaining for every little thing I see. Sometimes I wonder, why do you even bother playing It ??? if you don't like so many things just go shoot some zombies, or something there are tons of other survival games. Whetstones are fine the mechanic is fine, what do you expect to sharpen all the hatchets and knifes in the world with one whetstone. The whole purpose is to make you explore find more stuff, if you have one whetstone which degrades let's say 1% then what is the point of exploring you'll just sit in the base sharpening your tools which will almost never fail. Where is the fun in that? whetstone is temporary fix until you find other supplies and it works fine as it is. Don't confuse the new players they need guidance not your bad remarks for the game. 1) Whetstones are not fine, the mechanic is not fine, if so many people are complaining about it. 2) Yeah, I expect to be able to sharpen "all the knives and hatchets in the world with one whetstone". I've got a stone that can do that, and I have been using it for over a decade 3) If you can't find at least one aspect of the game that deserves criticism, then tell me what you are playing. No game is perfect. The Long Dark, although a very good game, is far from perfect, and several of the mechanics are a part of that. In real life, I "sharpen" (really, take a steel to it and strop it) after every use, and I do the same to my axe. It is called "preventative maintenance", and if you don't do it, then the tool is much more likely to get damaged (at the worst), or just be dull and inefficient (at the least). Same thing with my clothing, and boots, and backpack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancopower Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 5 hours ago, Boston123 said: 1) Whetstones are not fine, the mechanic is not fine, if so many people are complaining about it. 2) Yeah, I expect to be able to sharpen "all the knives and hatchets in the world with one whetstone". I've got a stone that can do that, and I have been using it for over a decade 3) If you can't find at least one aspect of the game that deserves criticism, then tell me what you are playing. No game is perfect. The Long Dark, although a very good game, is far from perfect, and several of the mechanics are a part of that. In real life, I "sharpen" (really, take a steel to it and strop it) after every use, and I do the same to my axe. It is called "preventative maintenance", and if you don't do it, then the tool is much more likely to get damaged (at the worst), or just be dull and inefficient (at the least). Same thing with my clothing, and boots, and backpack. I was talking about the game-play not sharpening techniques I'll put this in quotes to emphasize it " The whetstone mechanics works fine in the game-play since in order to survive you need to loot not just stand in one place and cut wood all day with your perfect tools" Ok I hope that it is all clear. Also this topic was started as a guide to help a fellow survivor not about debating the usage of tools anyway yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahoset Posted April 26, 2016 Author Share Posted April 26, 2016 actualy i start the topic cause i dont like the mechanic of the whetstonne... not realistic and too frustating i don t have a real problem to survive, after 40 days i got all i need ^^ i d prefer to find less wstone and keep it a long time. and a non sharped axe still cut wood, ok it don t really cut ^^ but you can breack big piece of wood it will just last longer. i m not complaining i just want the game to be more real and fun. excuse my english ^^ and thx for answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyzara Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 Just as an appeal to everyone in general (preventatively, so to say): Please remember to keep the discussion friendly and civil, even if you completely disagree with somebody's opinion. (I'm saying this as gameplay vs. realism debates can get inflammatory very fast). @topic: I for one always value playability more than realism. If both go hand in hand: Great. If not, I always find it more important for mechanics to make sense gameplay-wise than to be perfectly realistic. All that being said, I don't mind the current whetstone decy rates as they're an incentive to go out and explore the world in search of further tools and whetstones. I personally wouldn't mind a rebalancing of the whetstone's decay rates and scarcity (e.g. 1% decay on use, but only 1/5 of the current amount of whetstones), but I guess this might have some unwanted sideeffects for new players or people who are plainly unlucky. So I kind of understand why the mechanics are currently rather based on many fast-degrading whetstones than on few long-lasting ones - it's an attempt to make sure everybody gets the chance to find a whetstone in their game. If whetstones were as scarce as let's say the firestriker, many people who don't know where to look for them probably wouldn't find a whetstone during the first dozens of days of their game (IF they even survive that long), so they would lack the ability to repair their tools alltogether. I hope everyone agrees that this isn't desirable from a gamedesign's point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveP Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 A game has to be based on a willing suspension of disbelief. If a particular item or action is simply ridiculous, it strains credulity. That's why people struggle with some aspects of the game. No game can be perfect nor would it be much fun if it were. In an apocalypse like this, I'd expect we would all starve to death eventually. Getting enough food to survive a long winter is a daunting task. The random spawning of tool items could be a slight problem. I've had games where I had a heck of a time finding a hatchet or a knife and others where I quickly got several. I usually just persevere with the game and accept the random challenges as they come however it can be very difficult to get through a game without certain tools. My vote would be to make whetstones last longer but still wear out. My advice would be to use the whetstone frequently until it is used up and you can find another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveP Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 13 hours ago, vancopower said: You are still complaining for every little thing I see. Sometimes I wonder, why do you even bother playing It ??? Let's keep the personal references friendly boys and girls. Please confine remarks to the matters at hand, not criticize people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahoset Posted April 26, 2016 Author Share Posted April 26, 2016 ok explain like this I understand the choices about whetstones ^^ thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirmagnos Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 15 hours ago, vancopower said: You are still complaining for every little thing I see. Sometimes I wonder, why do you even bother playing It ??? if you don't like so many things just go shoot some zombies, or something there are tons of other survival games. Whetstones are fine the mechanic is fine, what do you expect to sharpen all the hatchets and knifes in the world with one whetstone. The whole purpose is to make you explore find more stuff, if you have one whetstone which degrades let's say 1% then what is the point of exploring you'll just sit in the base sharpening your tools which will almost never fail. Where is the fun in that? whetstone is temporary fix until you find other supplies and it works fine as it is. Don't confuse the new players they need guidance not your bad remarks for the game. Really, you complain about me complaining and then your argument is "everything is fine" ? Seriously ? One must appreciate an irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancopower Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 Ok people let's get something straight, I am addressing the experienced players we all know that the whetstone mechanic is a temporary fix, before we used to repair with sharp blades with scrap metal and wood which was fine then and not too realistic also, but now with the DP we have other options which supports exploring and finding new things. Wouldn't it be game braking to only have super powerful whetstones for the sake of realism and detour from all the good things the DEVs introduced in DP. This is still a game last time I checked it needs to have some sort of mechanism to make it interesting, and what is interesting about having whetstone that never ends ? maybe it needs some balancing issues maybe not. However it works fine for me. You don't need to chop down every limb you find along the way just save your tools for when it really matters right? Also I didn't say that TLD is perfect there are many things still missing like our best defense against the wolves now is starting up fire which is kind of lame, but that is another topic. My point is we can not mislead new players by saying that the mechanic does not work, I will say this again it is not perfect but it works just fine if you see the big picture. Dahoset I want to apologize if we turned your topic in to Presidential debate, I hope that you will not mind we are and odd bunch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boston123 Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 The thing is..... many people (including me) find the forging mechanics completely, 100% nonsensical. I absolutely refuse to forge tools as a result. Blacksmithing is hard. You have to know what type of steel you are using, the grade, what the carbon content is, what hardness to temper the steel to (and how to know when you reach the right temper), and how to create proper edge geometry. In real life, blacksmithing is a dying art. You basically need a chemistry degree to understand what is going on "inside" the metal. The fact that our backwoods bushpilot somehow knows how to forge metal is so nonsensical, it completely removes me from any sense of immersion I had in the game. I, and many other posters of the Steam forum, want forging either diminished, or removed entirely. Yet, with the current item degradation mechanics, you have to use it, in order to survive. You have to travel all the way to Desolation Point and forge some cock-eyed, pieces-of-junk (seriously, have you used the improvised tools? They suck). In real life, I have a full-sized splitting axe from 1920. The handle has been replaced many times, and the head has a nice patina from age, but if I had to use it (I don't, due to respect for tools, and the fact that have a nice maul for that), it would function just as well as when it was made. With proper maintenance (sharpening, oiling, handle replacement, etc) , tools can last for decades In real life, the the actual blades of axes and knives are so unlikely to break (so long as you aren't doing something stupid with them, which we can't do in the game anyways), the fact that we can "use" them into oblivion is nonsensical. Get dull, chip, sure. But even the dullest axe/knife can easily be fixed with proper application of file and whetstone. Axe handles and knife handles can be easily replaced, so that isn't even an issue. Oh, and I don't know about you, but when I sharpen my tools, I tend to sharpen them ALL the way. I don't do "5%" of the edge, go "that's good for now!", and put it away for later. My main issue with the whetstone is the degradation mechanic. If it degraded at the current rate, but sharpened the tool to 100%, I would be "fine" (more like "less annoyed", but whatever) with it. But, right now, it is so absolutely absurd that sharpening a knife to "100%" can destroy a whetstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancopower Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 21 hours ago, Boston123 said: The thing is..... many people (including me) find the forging mechanics completely, 100% nonsensical. I absolutely refuse to forge tools as a result. Blacksmithing is hard. You have to know what type of steel you are using, the grade, what the carbon content is, what hardness to temper the steel to (and how to know when you reach the right temper), and how to create proper edge geometry. In real life, blacksmithing is a dying art. You basically need a chemistry degree to understand what is going on "inside" the metal. The fact that our backwoods bushpilot somehow knows how to forge metal is so nonsensical, it completely removes me from any sense of immersion I had in the game. I, and many other posters of the Steam forum, want forging either diminished, or removed entirely. Yet, with the current item degradation mechanics, you have to use it, in order to survive. You have to travel all the way to Desolation Point and forge some cock-eyed, pieces-of-junk (seriously, have you used the improvised tools? They suck). In real life, I have a full-sized splitting axe from 1920. The handle has been replaced many times, and the head has a nice patina from age, but if I had to use it (I don't, due to respect for tools, and the fact that have a nice maul for that), it would function just as well as when it was made. With proper maintenance (sharpening, oiling, handle replacement, etc) , tools can last for decades In real life, the the actual blades of axes and knives are so unlikely to break (so long as you aren't doing something stupid with them, which we can't do in the game anyways), the fact that we can "use" them into oblivion is nonsensical. Get dull, chip, sure. But even the dullest axe/knife can easily be fixed with proper application of file and whetstone. Axe handles and knife handles can be easily replaced, so that isn't even an issue. Oh, and I don't know about you, but when I sharpen my tools, I tend to sharpen them ALL the way. I don't do "5%" of the edge, go "that's good for now!", and put it away for later. My main issue with the whetstone is the degradation mechanic. If it degraded at the current rate, but sharpened the tool to 100%, I would be "fine" (more like "less annoyed", but whatever) with it. But, right now, it is so absolutely absurd that sharpening a knife to "100%" can destroy a whetstone. My neighbor would disagree about "blacksmithing is a dying art." he is 70 years and still bangs the hammer all day long making axes, saws, and god knows what for the lumberjacks. Today I ordered firewood and the guy who brought it said I know where you live next to the blacksmith. Also I don't think that my neighbor has chemistry degree or even a high school degree for that matter, maybe we learned the secret of steel from Crom the god of Conan the barbarian Getting down the condition of whetstone does not mean that it is destroyed maybe the layer which sharpened the blade is wasted and the material beneath is smooth or breakable. Yes it is a bit unrealistic but it has game-play logic yes? maybe they will re-balance it or remove it completely and put it something else instead like electrical sharpening machines that never go to waste just need fuel. To sum up the game is far from finished maybe in future updates forging will not be required at all, especially when they add NPC's and some sort of trading maybe there will be electricity so you can sharpen your tools without having to use whetstone, my point is just because we don't like something we can't say that it does not work. I believe that in the final stages of the game you would have so many options that you would not know what to do first. Should I forge tools, should I sharpen the ones I have on some sharpening machine in another region, or should I go and trade with someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirmagnos Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 17 hours ago, vancopower said: My neighbor would disagree about "blacksmithing is a dying art." he is 70 years and still bangs the hammer all day long making axes, saws, and god knows what for the lumberjacks. Today I ordered firewood and the guy who brought it said I know where you live next to the blacksmith. Also I don't think that my neighbor has chemistry degree or even a high school degree for that matter, maybe we learned the secret of steel from Crom the god of Conan the barbarian Getting down the condition of whetstone does not mean that it is destroyed maybe the layer which sharpened the blade is wasted and the material beneath is smooth or breakable. Yes it is a bit unrealistic but it has game-play logic yes? maybe they will re-balance it or remove it completely and put it something else instead like electrical sharpening machines that never go to waste just need fuel. To sum up the game is far from finished maybe in future updates forging will not be required at all, especially when they add NPC's and some sort of trading maybe there will be electricity so you can sharpen your tools without having to use whetstone, my point is just because we don't like something we can't say that it does not work. I believe that in the final stages of the game you would have so many options that you would not know what to do first. Should I forge tools, should I sharpen the ones I have on some sharpening machine in another region, or should I go and trade with someone. Blacksmithing is dying art. Its mostly reserved for enthusiasts and people like your neighbor, who probably started doing it as hobby, rather than actual means of income. Its simply not cost-effective in world of advanced metallurgy and assembly lines. And while whetstone do wear down, it doesn do that at such extremely accelerated pace as it is in TLD. Its not "bit unrealistic", its more like a lot unrealistic. On par with tool wear. I can understand where current mechanic comes from, but it doesnt mean that theres not a huge space for improvement as development progresses. And generally if person says that something doesnt work, then it doesn work, for him. From that persons point of view system is broken. And saying "its ok" or "dont confuse new players" is rather elitistic - theres 2 points of view, my and the wrong one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancopower Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Dirmagnos said: Blacksmithing is dying art. Its mostly reserved for enthusiasts and people like your neighbor, who probably started doing it as hobby, rather than actual means of income. Its simply not cost-effective in world of advanced metallurgy and assembly lines. And while whetstone do wear down, it doesn do that at such extremely accelerated pace as it is in TLD. Its not "bit unrealistic", its more like a lot unrealistic. On par with tool wear. I can understand where current mechanic comes from, but it doesnt mean that theres not a huge space for improvement as development progresses. And generally if person says that something doesnt work, then it doesn work, for him. From that persons point of view system is broken. And saying "its ok" or "dont confuse new players" is rather elitistic - theres 2 points of view, my and the wrong one. You know nothing Jon Snow: First of all my neighbor is making axes, saws and other wood cutting tools for almost 50 years, and he may yet do it for another 50. Sure there is mass production mass consumption that sort of thing but sometimes it is a matter of trust not price. People buy from him because they trust him more than the imported goods. And yes he makes income not only for him but for the whole family of maybe 10 people I don't know how many people they are but they seem a lot and nobody else works unfortunately. He is a hero grampa If you say something doesn't work you have to be more specific. You can't just say this mechanic doesn't work throw a few curse words to make it more "emphatic". This is not a chat window after all, people will read this maybe google it. I know that this is not a tech forum but still it is a matter of habit or should I say culture to make yourself clear when you are posting on forums right? Also who knows what the next update will bring maybe they will remove the hatched and knives altogether and make us fight wolves with bare hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisHunter Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 I agree with the OP. This mechanic could use some help. I would like a way to sharpen my tool all the way to 100% in one go. Or clean my rifle all the way. Who does 4% of a job and then quits? Just like boiling water you should see stats drain and time go by until the job is finished. As far as stone frequency and wear I don't think it matters personally. So long as the balance of resources makes the game challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancopower Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 1 hour ago, ElvisHunter said: I agree with the OP. This mechanic could use some help. I would like a way to sharpen my tool all the way to 100% in one go. Or clean my rifle all the way. Who does 4% of a job and then quits? Just like boiling water you should see stats drain and time go by until the job is finished. As far as stone frequency and wear I don't think it matters personally. So long as the balance of resources makes the game challenging. They already said that water melting will be re-balanced together with the new cooking system you will be able to multitask even on multiple stoves or campfires, maybe they will do something for the whetstone too, as I said it is a temporary fix we all know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirmagnos Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 59 minutes ago, vancopower said: You know nothing Jon Snow: First of all my neighbor is making axes, saws and other wood cutting tools for almost 50 years, and he may yet do it for another 50. Sure there is mass production mass consumption that sort of thing but sometimes it is a matter of trust not price. People buy from him because they trust him more than the imported goods. And yes he makes income not only for him but for the whole family of maybe 10 people I don't know how many people they are but they seem a lot and nobody else works unfortunately. He is a hero grampa If you say something doesn't work you have to be more specific. You can't just say this mechanic doesn't work throw a few curse words to make it more "emphatic". This is not a chat window after all, people will read this maybe google it. I know that this is not a tech forum but still it is a matter of habit or should I say culture to make yourself clear when you are posting on forums right? Also who knows what the next update will bring maybe they will remove the hatched and knives altogether and make us fight wolves with bare hands Snow urself. 8) 50 years or not, question remains, do you know how exactly he started doing that ? Was it a choice or more of a result of circumstances ? Trust is good, but he can make only so many tools per period of time and there are a lot of people, who wannt it now and they wannt it cheap. Blacksmithy is considered more an art than craft nowdays, a hobby. Sure, there are people who do it professionally, praise and glory to them, but on a grand scale, they are pretty much nothing. More specific ? He says that it finds it immersion breaking since its completely unrealistic. How much specific do you need him to be ? Beats using "its just a game" as generic and pretty much irrelevant answer as "argument". Such argument has no defined borders or definitions, so it really be used both ways with equal weight. And i seriously doubt that any1 visiting forum will find "its just a game" to be helpful to any degree. Be it ideas, guides or bug reporting. What they may or may not do in the next update is irrelevant, we are discussing situation based on facts present now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarolinaSantAngelo Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 I think a good dynamic for the whetstone would be to make it hard to find (one and two at most) and for it to wear down way way slowlier than now. At the same time make it so that hatchets and knife have an efficiency output and when they are not in prime condition they don't perform as well. Meaning that they become less sharp out of a day of use, ergo you need to keep them everyday or every few days in good condition with the whetstone or an activity that would last 30m would become 1h for example. The knife is a really good example of this, because a hatchet can cut because of blunt force specially even if it isn't so sharp, but a knife and butchering an animal will really need it. This way you don't find yourself desperate because your tools are being destroyed at high speed but you exchange it for time you need to spend everyday in keeping your things sharp if you don't want to waste time doing activities that could be shorter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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