Birch

[Salty Crackers]

I feel that there isn't any reason to go to the birch areas for bark. Tinder is easy to gather, so why should I go so far just to pick up a few pieces? I have a few suggestions.

1. Give birch bark a bonus for starting fires. I'm not saying anything big, but if you make birch bark 1 or 2 percent more likely to start a fire, maybe I'll actually pick it up.

2. Add birch wood. Birch has a higher BTU than fir, so it would make a fire go for about 2 hours. It would weigh more than fir, and have no bonus for starting a fire with it. You could only get in from birch limbs that have fallen in a birch forest. These would also be a lot fewer of these limbs, and they would respawn slower.

[Dirmagnos]

Dont care about bonus to fire making, its easy enough to rise even without 1-match exploit that devs will hopefully fix.

But i would like to see Birch Tea. Strengthening immunity, soothes joints and helps keeping skin healthy. Preventive medicinal item.

[Boston123]

If anything, birch bark should have a major bonus to starting fires. Birch bark,over almost anything else, is my go-to firestarter. This is because birchbark has oils in it, that light even in heavy winds or when the bark is wet.

I have soaked birchbark in a bucket of water for several hours, then pulled it out and put a match to it. It burst into flames.

Birchwood is also a pretty decent firewood, being in the upper-middle of the "firewood rankings". It even burns well when wet or green, which is a plus.

[SteveP]

1 hour ago, Dirmagnos said:

1-match exploit

Is this an actual exploit? Then it shouldn't be mentioned.

Is this a legal part of the game? For example, I can ensure I start a fire with one match by first lighting a torch and then lighting the fire from the torch. Is that what you are referring to? That's not an exploit. That's just using your noggin.

I'm beginning to think there should be a super hard mode of TLD where there are no matches at all and the only way you can get fire is by lightning strike and you have to carry fire with you everywhere like they did in Quest for Fire.

[Dirmagnos]

22 minutes ago, SteveP said:

Is this a legal part of the game? For example, I can ensure I start a fire with one match by first lighting a torch and then lighting the fire from the torch. Is that what you are referring to? That's not an exploit. That's just using your noggin.

Its an obvious exploit, since i seriously doubt that devs intended player to be able to max out his firemaking skill with just 1 match an a bunch of sticks in a few game hours.

Thats the difference between gamers and lamers. Latter will abuse every bug they can find and be extremely proud of themselves, being "pro" , while former have some integrity not to resolve to such degenerative tactics. Unfortunately rather common sight nowadays. Especially pathetic online, when those "pros" get banned for their "immensive skill".

[Pillock]

34 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

Its an obvious exploit, since i seriously doubt that devs intended player to be able to max out his firemaking skill with just 1 match an a bunch of sticks in a few game hours.

Thats the difference between gamers and lamers. Latter will abuse every bug they can find and be extremely proud of themselves, being "pro" , while former have some integrity not to resolve to such degenerative tactics. Unfortunately rather common sight nowadays. Especially pathetic online, when those "pros" get banned for their "immensive skill".

Perhaps the 'exploit' could be prevented by separating the two types of torches by giving them different properties - only the ones you make at a workbench using kerosene would be able to be lit at will with a match, while the ones you make by pulling out of a fire would have to be relit by holding them in another fire for several minutes. Something like that? Compensate for the reduced usefulness of fire-made torches (as wolf repellent) by extending the burn times so that you can carry them lit for longer (I kind of think this would be a good change for the game, anyway).

As for people being proud of themselves for exploiting the mechanics, in a single player game where what they do has no effect on me: I couldn't care less. Anyway, while the game's in pre-release testing still, it's good that players are finding exploits, so that the developers can recognise them and implement fixes (hopefully).

[cekivi]

2 hours ago, Pillock said:

Perhaps the 'exploit' could be prevented by separating the two types of torches by giving them different properties - only the ones you make at a workbench using kerosene would be able to be lit at will with a match, while the ones you make by pulling out of a fire would have to be relit by holding them in another fire for several minutes. Something like that? Compensate for the reduced usefulness of fire-made torches (as wolf repellent) by extending the burn times so that you can carry them lit for longer (I kind of think this would be a good change for the game, anyway).

As for people being proud of themselves for exploiting the mechanics, in a single player game where what they do has no effect on me: I couldn't care less. Anyway, while the game's in pre-release testing still, it's good that players are finding exploits, so that the developers can recognise them and implement fixes (hopefully).

Hopefully

[SteveP]

6 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Its an obvious exploit, since i seriously doubt that devs intended player to be able to max out his firemaking skill with just 1 match an a bunch of sticks in a few game hours.

Well he still has to make about 25 to 50 fires to max out firemaking skill so the player has to spend the time to find or harvest that many sticks and tiner. What's to stop someone from doing the same thing on a sunny day with the magnifying lens? you would need less sticks assuming you need two or three to pluck out a torch whereas with the lens, you can start as many fires as you want. Let's say you are clever enough to figure out how many fires you can light with a single torch and then throw in two extra sticks on the last fire and grab a new torch or keep a few spare ones to light off the old fires. That's pretty clever and deserves a reward! I am pretty sure this is by design. You acquire fire starting skill by practicing. The more you realize that this game is about being smart not agile, the sooner you'll master survival. Actually with a plentiful supply of sticks to start fires with, I never have a problem with my fire starting skill. In about 12 game days, the fire skill is high enough to start reclaimed wood fires and its rare that you would have to go to that extreme unless you cannot get a hatchet at all. I would say a spawn map without a hatchet is kind of unfair but I play with the cards as they are dealt. I don't see that as much of a serious advantage much less an exploit.

I think what you guys are kicking about is that torches and fires repel predators. This is somehow news to you? Perhaps the greatest invention early man made was how to start his own fires and then to chip stone tools and to hunt by putting his mind into the mind of his prey.

Let me propose a solution to the "too easy" wolf stall with fire; you let wolves gang up on you and circle around you; then you have to have multiple torches or plenty of cartridges 'cause arrows aren't going to cut it. They will be left in the wolf and you can't get to him with other wolves around. It's a simple change in the AI to add wolf pack attacks and that belongs in Stalker mode which aims to present a serious challenge to the survivor. And lo and behold, if I'm not mistaken, that very thing is on the roadmap. It has been suggested in the past by multiple individuals independently.

The same is true for bears; there is no need to obsolete this valuable tool of defense: fire. In fact, it compensates for the scarcity of cartridges. Would you complain as vociferously about 20 boxes of ammo with 20 rounds apiece? No, only because the fire trap permits non-coordinated people to play while giving the advantage to agile players. We shouldn't be advertising the techniques for multi-fire making to boost fire skill but still, if the player thinks it through, he can understand that practice does make perfection.

You know what; I have to stick up for smart people. They don't get the credit they are due because our system is rigged to have instituional mediocrity (google it) I love that this game appeals to a wide range of people and its not an arcade game; I like that it's a thinking game! How long can you last? Do the math. Do your homework and learn the techniques!

Besides, it's not like matches are a critical resource; at least not yet!

I rather think, if I were a betting man, that all this is going to be overcome by events shortly when new fire making technology arrives and then suddenly the matches might be much more scarce, just as they are in real life.

BTW my bets are on Quest for Fire and the fire drill. ;-) 20 dried fish. Any takers?

[Dirmagnos]

To be honest i dont like whole idea of "making" torches out of fires. When crafting it takes several resources, 2 of which are not renewable and then you can just take a stick out of the fire with no additional time or resource required. With both actions having same result. Why would i even bother actually making torches at workbench, when i can make ones from fires, a lot faster and practically at no cost.

And exploiting a design flaw dosnt make you clever, it makes you a loser who have no self-respect. And ability to bring one of crucial game skill to level that guarantees fire starting with next to no effort in like 2-3 days(that takes to collect enough sticks) is a serious problem, at least for me.

[Pillock]

11 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

To be honest i dont like whole idea of "making" torches out of fires. When crafting it takes several resources, 2 of which are not renewable and then you can just take a stick out of the fire with no additional time or resource required. With both actions having same result. Why would i even bother actually making torches at workbench, when i can make ones from fires, a lot faster and practically at no cost.

And exploiting a design flaw dosnt make you clever, it makes you a loser who have no self-respect. And ability to bring one of crucial game skill to level that guarantees fire starting with next to no effort in like 2-3 days(that takes to collect enough sticks) is a serious problem, at least for me.

I think it should be impossible to reach 100% firelighting success probability. There should always be a chance that it will fail. I also think the 'skills' progression should be on a steepening curve so that it gets harder and harder to add skill points the higher you get.

I take SteveP's point about practice, though: if you sat down one day, then repeatedly lit and extinguished a fire, you would get better at it by the end of the day. It would be boring (and it's pretty boring to that in game), but if you wanted to practice a skill you might well do that. What they need to do in terms of game design is prevent/delay 'maxing-out', as I said above.

You're right about the workbench-manufactured torches: I've never made one in over 300 hours playing TLD. Not even once. I don't see the point: it's a complete waste of kerosene, which is valuable. There needs to be a change somewhere regarding this, I think.

[SteveP]

12 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

And exploiting a design flaw dosn't make you clever, it makes you a loser who have no self-respect. And ability to bring one of crucial game skill to level that guarantees fire starting with next to no effort in like 2-3 days(that takes to collect enough sticks) is a serious problem, at least for me.

Who decided its a design flaw? It's a design intention. You practice to acquire skill. I find your "loser" comment insulting and lacking respect. If one can do the math and figure out how to optimize the process, any process, that is by definition clever. Don't be so condescending sir! (lest we be caught up in a conflagration of rhetoric!!)

Seriously? Fire making skill acquisition is a serious problem? Take a break dude!

I don't like it that certain people are trying to invent a controversy over the use of torches. What is it that you want to gain? In whose eyes is it unfair? To those who are adept at leaping out of the path of wolves somehow or to those who think and plan? Get over this hero mentality. It's the 21st century. Collaboration is factorially more powerful than competition just as intelligence is more important than brawn.

Fire is a powerful tool all by itself. You want to use guns but those are just another form of the applied use of fire: fire to create the metals, fire to craft the metals, fire to harden the metal for cutting tools, fire to propel the bullet out the rifle, fire to drive the internal combustion engines that form the basis of our entire civilization.

I tell you what, there should be a new difficulty level just for those who disdain the use of fire. You start the game on Timberwolf Mountain and you have no matches and no means to create fire. Call this new level "Fireless and Hopeless"!!

 

[Patrick Carlson]

21 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Its an obvious exploit, since i seriously doubt that devs intended player to be able to max out his firemaking skill with just 1 match an a bunch of sticks in a few game hours.

Thats the difference between gamers and lamers. Latter will abuse every bug they can find and be extremely proud of themselves, being "pro" , while former have some integrity not to resolve to such degenerative tactics. Unfortunately rather common sight nowadays. Especially pathetic online, when those "pros" get banned for their "immensive skill".

Especially if you've been following the development of The Long Dark for a while, you know that its various systems are always evolving. What you see is a snapshot of where are right now, and things may change down the road. We're always looking for ways to make the game experience more compelling, both for ongoing players and those who haven't picked up the game yet. 

13 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

To be honest i dont like whole idea of "making" torches out of fires. When crafting it takes several resources, 2 of which are not renewable and then you can just take a stick out of the fire with no additional time or resource required. With both actions having same result. Why would i even bother actually making torches at workbench, when i can make ones from fires, a lot faster and practically at no cost.

And exploiting a design flaw dosnt make you clever, it makes you a loser who have no self-respect. And ability to bring one of crucial game skill to level that guarantees fire starting with next to no effort in like 2-3 days(that takes to collect enough sticks) is a serious problem, at least for me.

We're happy to get thoughtful feedback on how you are playing the game, but please don't resort to personal comments about other members. That's not welcome and not necessary, even if you strongly disagree. Thank you. 

[Boston123]

In "real life", I have actually made a "torch" out of a stick and birchbark before. It was pretty easy and worked surprisingly well.

http://www.survival-manual.com/torches/birch-bark-torch.php

[SteveP]

As an appeal to realism, I could agree that it would be hard to get a burning brand from a fire that would last 20 minutes. But if you had a cutting tool, you could gather grass and twigs and pitch; with cordage your could fashion a reasonable torch that could last, in the real world, somewhere between 5 minutes and 15 minutes. Perhaps that is the sort of fire weapon or fire carrying tool that would be less contrived. The torch at this stage is a simple tool that represents our ability to harness fire for many purposes. Later on, time permitting, more realistic items could be added yet they add little to the game play interaction with animals.

I hope my light-hearted and mock-dramatic response above helps to provides perspective, a little insight and hopefully encourages self-examination.

[SteveP]

To return to the topic of birch; this is a great resource. Birch bark all by itself, jammed into a split stick, makes a tolerable torch as well as a form of accelerant when starting a fire. Suppose you had a bear that has been stalking you for days and closing in on your main shelter. You must eliminate this bear or frighten it off. At first you build a great roaring fire and this alone is often all it takes to discourage a normal predator however this bear is starving and it is intent on having you for dinner (and not in the convivial way); it keeps hanging about and lingering just outside the ring of fire you've built. You can't go mano-a-mano with the bear even though you might have a dozen sharp pointy sticks; fortunately you have a .303 and a few precious cartridges. You take the bear down but you know the day will arrive when another bear will come down out of the mountains in search of easier food so you start crafting your bow and arrow. You might decide to try your hand at the atlatl. This sort of weapon gives you a big advantage as a ranged weapon however the bow and arrow is far superior in terms of range and speed and accuracy. You also gather loads of birch and dried grass to make dozens of small, light torches that can rapidly be kindled to make fire when you need it FAST.

So what else can you do with birch bark? You can put it into a container buried under a fire and heat it to extract the resin. That makes great pitch and a tolerable accelerant for fire starting.

I think the fire starting skill debate belongs on a different topic because it really deserves a lot more exposition and ideas so I'll start one for it. I'll even make it a poll however time is at a premium today so the options for the poll will remain open. This topic has exposed a lot of interesting ideas! Thank you Salty!