Official modding support

[Viktor Kvasnica]

Hi, everyone,

just creating this topic/poll to aggregate the thoughts on the mod support (creation of user maps and alike) for the future. If/when the time comes we can use it as a good starting point.

Feel free to suggest som other areas of interest for the poll. I will then add them.

Take care!

Vic

P. S. By the way, thank you, Hinterland, for enabling the polls :).

[grimreefer24601]

This game is made with Unity.

All Unity games can be modded.

I mod the hell out of this game already.

[Viktor Kvasnica]

6 hours ago, grimreefer24601 said:

This game is made with Unity.

All Unity games can be modded.

I mod the hell out of this game already.

Technically, you are right - games, powered by the Unity engine and/or created by the Unity editor, can be modded using the Unity editor (or other tools). As a computer programs, they can be modded by hacking generally.

The game files are compiled in such a way they are not easily edited even by the Unity editor - the files are encrypted (for instance the Unity editor will not open the asset file "resources.assets"). Special tools are needed to edit these files, or, technically, hack them (there are not editable officially).

This topic is not about such an unofficial modding (or hacking) the game files, it is focused on the official mod support and making the game files/resources officially editable (by using a standard Unity editor for instance). I will change the topic's name accordingly.

[Dirmagnos]

I do believe that devs are all for modding.

Just not yet, as game is being still in full development stage. Once things settle down, most values in place, then wel probably get an editor, for everything(or almost everything).

[SteveP]

Viktor, good idea for a poll on this topic as I believe there is substantial interest in being able to extend TLD. Hinterland has it on the road map.

If new items are to be added, then they will need spawn points or crafting mechanics and action mechanics. If the items have an effect upon wild life, then the animal's AI would also need to be accessible.

If we add new maps, then these maps would have to have spawn points added at the minimum.

The only other option I can see is giving the modder the capability to only change certain properties however that would add considerable complexity in my opinion and also of limited appeal. So you could make the bear look like Thomas the Tank Engine; sorry that doesn't appeal. I think to make it appealing, you've got to be able to add items (objects) and thus able to get at the behaviours of objects in general since objects interact with one another.

I suppose the question to ask is does modding support make a game more appealing to purchase; I think it does. Does modding carry a risk of making it easy to clone the product illegally? I don't know; there seem to be clones already available so that is more of a weakness of the Steam architecture as many many other Steam games can be pirated. In general, with a game that is still being developed and extended, one wants to have official modding so as to be able to take advantage of new features so I would say that modding definitely adds appeal and thus revenue. I think it's win-win.

I think the vast majority of us are already owners of the game but if we had to purchase it, perhaps we want to ask if official modding support has value to us and by extension, to prospective buyers and players. TLD makes for good videos for YouTube and this sort of game also generates interest and results in a larger community which in turn drives interest.

I think modding is probably only possible for PC, Linux and Mac but would it necessarily be possible with Xbox? That's a question I'm not qualified to venture an opinion. I suppose it's a feature, possibly a stand alone feature. These questions are difficult enough that the experts need to be consulted.

It's easier to support extensibility with a data driven approach; in this manner the user can have a utility that understands the meta-data for the objects. Behavior of objects is done in C# so it would be a major effort to convert that to a data-driven design. Correct me if I'm wrong please. I suppose you could have plug-in modules of some sort. I don't know. I'm definitely keen to hear the thoughts of others on this subject.

[SteveP]

Which other Steam games support official modding and are they successful as a result of it?

[cowboymrh]

At some point down the road, I would love to see modding support for at least map making and creation for a start.

As I've stated in other topics, I would love to see this game with 20 or 30 connected maps to explore in sandbox mode.....

For me... the exploration aspect of this game is one of my biggest enjoyments!

[Viktor Kvasnica]

1 hour ago, SteveP said:

I suppose the question to ask is does modding support make a game more appealing to purchase; I think it does. Does modding carry a risk of making it easy to clone the product illegally? I don't know; there seem to be clones already available so that is more of a weakness of the Steam architecture as many many other Steam games can be pirated. In general, with a game that is still being developed and extended, one wants to have official modding so as to be able to take advantage of new features so I would say that modding definitely adds appeal and thus revenue. I think it's win-win.

I think the same Steve.

Well, the more the game files (or the code of the game), are publicly accessible and editable, the more the game's protection is prone to crack/override/disable and the game can be distributed illegally. In my opinion, every software protection can be disabled/overridden with the right tools and knowledge - trying to protect a game ultimately is... a never-ending story and a waste of time. It is also a matter of character/honesty. Who really wants to get a game illegally will get it eventually. Who is honest and wants to support the game, developers and their hard work, will buy the game or support it in some other acceptable way (To be honest, I had an illegal copy of TLD at first - I was very impressed by the game but there was no demo of it. So I have downloaded a cracked version just to try it. The game was very good and so is now, even better. Thus I have bought it.). I think it will be better to focus on the quality, accessibility and expandability of the game rather than on its protection. Majority of the people will value it and will give the appropriate credit. The modding can create a strong base for the players and for the developers also. The players will realize their dreams, create an interesting and enjoyable content. They can even create some great titles/stories based on the actual game. The developers will have a strong support from the community, which in turn will help them to expand the game in the future. It really can be a win-win situation if taken care of properly I think.

2 hours ago, SteveP said:

I think modding is probably only possible for PC, Linux and Mac but would it necessarily be possible with Xbox? That's a question I'm not qualified to venture an opinion. I suppose it's a feature, possibly a stand alone feature. These questions are difficult enough that the experts need to be consulted.

It's easier to support extensibility with a data driven approach; in this manner the user can have a utility that understands the meta-data for the objects. Behavior of objects is done in C# so it would be a major effort to convert that to a data-driven design. Correct me if I'm wrong please. I suppose you could have plug-in modules of some sort. I don't know. I'm definitely keen to hear the thoughts of others on this subject.

Yep, those are difficult questions.

For the majority of platforms (Windows/Linux/iOS) it should suffice to make the game resources (models, scripts, textures, maps and alike) available for the standard Unity editor (the free Personal edition). The player/modder will then just install the Unity editor and use it to mod the game (Why create some other tool if there is one strong already?). The consoles, well, are another story and need a different approach - it is not possible to install the Unity editor on them as I know (but I am not very much, if at all, into the consoles, so I can be wrong). I will, again :), use a very good example of successful approach to the modding - the Epic Games, their Unreal Engine (or "UDK") and title "Unreal Tournament" - https://www.epicgames.com/unrealtournament/tutorials. Their approach to the modding (and the development of their current installment of the Unreal Tournament) can give us some good hints.

2 hours ago, SteveP said:

Which other Steam games support official modding and are they successful as a result of it?

That is a good question. I, personally, do not know any such game.

1 hour ago, cowboymrh said:

For me... the exploration aspect of this game is one of my biggest enjoyments!

For me too - I really like the exploration aspect of the game.

[cowboymrh]

3 hours ago, SteveP said:

Which other Steam games support official modding and are they successful as a result of it?

 

One of the other Steam Games that I love to play is "Europa Universalis lV"

They have a very active and successful modding community! However....that being said, Europa Universalis is a strategy "boardgame"

and not a first person story driven game like TLD, so I don't know how the different modding aspects would apply.

[hauteecolerider]

4 hours ago, SteveP said:

Which other Steam games support official modding and are they successful as a result of it?

Skyrim comes to mind. Fallout 4 too, I suspect.

Both the Fallout games and the Elder Scrolls games have had mod support for some time now. Beth soft even releases game editors that let us add modded content to the games. Skyrim has been moddable since its release, and I'm sure Fallout 4 is the same, since Fallout 3 (not originally Steam) has been. 

[grimreefer24601]

American Truck Simulator, XCOM2, Civ V all have mod support and Steam Workshop.

[Viktor Kvasnica]

I just added a new question to this poll: "If you are interested in an official modding support, on which platform do you prefer to mod the game?". So we will have an overview of the platforms potentially used for modding the game. Feel free to vote on it.

I wanted to add one more question about the preferred "style" of modding (i. e. using the standard Unity editor), but have already reached the maximum allowed number of poll questions.

[Patrick Carlson]

2 hours ago, Viktor Kvasnica said:

I think the same Steve.

Well, the more the game files (or the code of the game), are publicly accessible and editable, the more the game's protection is prone to crack/override/disable and the game can be distributed illegally. In my opinion, every software protection can be disabled/overridden with the right tools and knowledge - trying to protect a game ultimately is... a never-ending story and a waste of time. It is also a matter of character/honesty. Who really wants to get a game illegally will get it eventually. Who is honest and wants to support the game, developers and their hard work, will buy the game or support it in some other acceptable way (To be honest, I had an illegal copy of TLD at first - I was very impressed by the game but there was no demo of it. So I have downloaded a cracked version just to try it. The game was very good and so is now, even better. Thus I have bought it.). I think it will be better to focus on the quality, accessibility and expandability of the game rather than on its protection. Majority of the people will value it and will give the appropriate credit. The modding can create a strong base for the players and for the developers also. The players will realize their dreams, create an interesting and enjoyable content. They can even create some great titles/stories based on the actual game. The developers will have a strong support from the community, which in turn will help them to expand the game in the future. It really can be a win-win situation if taken care of properly I think.

Yep, those are difficult questions.

For the majority of platforms (Windows/Linux/iOS) it should suffice to make the game resources (models, scripts, textures, maps and alike) available for the standard Unity editor (the free Personal edition). The player/modder will then just install the Unity editor and use it to mod the game (Why create some other tool if there is one strong already?). The consoles, well, are another story and need a different approach - it is not possible to install the Unity editor on them as I know (but I am not very much, if at all, into the consoles, so I can be wrong). I will, again :), use a very good example of successful approach to the modding - the Epic Games, their Unreal Engine (or "UDK") and title "Unreal Tournament" - https://www.epicgames.com/unrealtournament/tutorials. Their approach to the modding (and the development of their current installment of the Unreal Tournament) can give us some good hints.

That is a good question. I, personally, do not know any such game.

For me too - I really like the exploration aspect of the game.

While we're fine with speculative discussion about possible future modding support for The Long Dark, please review our forum's community guidelines with regard to topics such as game piracy and hacked versions of the game: http://hinterlandforums.com/index.php?/announcement/4-rules-and-guidelines-for-the-hinterland-forums/

Discussion of game piracy and hacked versions of the game is not allowed and carries serious consequences. Thank you.  

[Viktor Kvasnica]

10 minutes ago, Patrick Carlson said:

While we're fine with speculative discussion about possible future modding support for The Long Dark, please review our forum's community guidelines with regard to topics such as game piracy and hacked versions of the game: http://hinterlandforums.com/index.php?/announcement/4-rules-and-guidelines-for-the-hinterland-forums/

Discussion of game piracy and hacked versions of the game is not allowed and carries serious consequences. Thank you.

I know the rules - I just wanted to react to the related comments and to be honest/informative. If my comment was inappropriate, I apologize. I do not encourage or support the game piracy or hacking in any way and will not to, of course.

[grimreefer24601]

17 minutes ago, Patrick Carlson said:

Discussion of game piracy and hacked versions of the game is not allowed and carries serious consequences. Thank you.  

So what do you consider a hacked version?  Any mods?  Script mods?  Textures?

 

I know you don't support mods, but are you really against us modding?  So many Official responses seem like you are.

[Raphael van Lierop]

We aren't against official modding at all, of course not. But, we don't support modding yet, which is why it's in the roadmap.

If you are modding "unofficially"...we don't support that, no. 

I've said this elsewhere but just to re-iterate -- we are big believers in the value of modding (I myself modded games years ago, like so many people, and many of the games I've worked on have offered mod support), and when the time is right we'd like to support modding of The Long Dark. Many of the best games currently available have mod support, and many amazing experiences actually started out as mods. I think, in particular, that all Valve's games and most of Bethesda's have benefitted hugely from a vibrant mod community, and we'd certainly like to see that happen for The Long Dark!

[piddy3825]

21 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

...and when the time is right we'd like to support modding of The Long Dark. Many of the best games currently available have mod support, and many amazing experiences actually started out as mods. I think, in particular, that all Valve's games and most of Bethesda's have benefitted hugely from a vibrant mod community, and we'd certainly like to see that happen for The Long Dark!

Well Said 

[grimreefer24601]

20 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

If you are modding "unofficially"...we don't support that, no.

I understand you don't support it, but can we discuss it?  Can I share with people here how to "unofficially" mod this game?  I've shared before, and had my comments deleted.

 

Will you consider bringing back the console?  I spilled the beans, so I guess it's my fault, but I don't think it ruins the game for players to access the console.

[grimreefer24601]

42 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

I myself modded games years ago, like so many people

A lot of that modding was the joy of figuring it out.  You didn't "officially" mod those games I'd bet.  You dug, and discovered and tweaked until you figured those games out.

My hacking has pointed out at least one bug in the game, and likely two.

But really, that's not the point.  If you're a modder, you understand that it's the discovery of what we can do that compels us.  What would you do?  If you knew how to mod Unity? And loved this game?

[grimreefer24601]

And really right now, what is "official" modding?  There is no "official" modding right now.  There's a few people like me who are digging into the files, and figuring out how the game works.

I would love to show people how to mod this game today.  Without "support".  Just because we can.

[nicko]

9 hours ago, grimreefer24601 said:

And really right now, what is "official" modding?  There is no "official" modding right now.  There's a few people like me who are digging into the files, and figuring out how the game works.

I would love to show people how to mod this game today.  Without "support".  Just because we can.

and would your mod be great or a lame kick in the butt? most likely the lame? Then I guess depends what mod it is. Rather HT mod this game for now.

Love to see or hear any ideas what your digging.

[nicko]

why? lame mods I guess with the 1% good mod might happen? the remainder I doubt but who knows. Guess it depends on the dev mod tools.

[FINDarkside]

6 minutes ago, nicko said:

why? lame mods I guess with the 1% good mod might happen the remainder I doubt but who knows. Guess it depends on the dev mod tools.

I don't really understand your question. Why what? Why doesn't it matter if it's good? Because he can't tell how to mod or show his mod regardless of if it's good or not. Even if you don't think it's good there certainly are people who would like it. Why are you so concerned about mod quality? If you don't like it don't use it. Official mod support will definitely lower the mod quality (assuming it makes it easy to create simple & low quality mods). But it doesn't really matter, for example Skyrim has tons of mods, but yet it's really easy to find some high quality ones.

[nicko]

What usually happens is the developer says good bye guys, leave it to you to change the game and never release updates again. The game then becomes a mess,

I would rather not see that happen as this game is unique! 

[FINDarkside]

12 minutes ago, nicko said:

What usually happens is the developer says good bye guys, leave it to you to change the game and never release updates again. The game then becomes a mess,

Take a look at 7 days to die for example. It's still early access, gets frequent updates and has nice modding community. I don't really see how a game becomes mess though. If it becomes mess it's your own fault, no one is forcing you to install every (or any) mod you see.