Fair maintenance of temperature system

[Сарказм]

Hi. Sorry for my English in advance.

I want to suggest a little more difficult maintenance of temperature system.
Calories won't disappear without result, they will be transformed to the warmth generated by the characters body.
The characters body generates warmth spending calories for it and loses warmth in an environment.
The more intensive action character makes, the more calories he spends in an hour of life and the more warmth generates his body.
If the characters body generates less warmth than it loses in environment, then the character begins to freeze gradually.
Otherwise, if the characters body generates more warmth than it loses in environment, then the character is gradually warmed.
So it will be possible to reduce influence of cold on the character making intensive actions, having spent fair value of calories.

The reasonable criticism is welcomed.

[Pillock]

Very well put.

I've often thought that my character ought to be able to warm up a bit by chopping wood or running - weather permitting.

At the moment, wolf encounters seem to make a significant impact on your tiredness level, but few other activities I can think of make for a noticeable change. I think the 'condition' levels should be much more dependent on your activities than they are. They do have effects, but those effects just aren't all that noticeable, making the condition bars play more like 'timers' than 'resources' at the moment. This feels somewhat unsatisfactory. I think we should be 'spending' our health levels, rather than waiting for them to tick away.

[Patrick Carlson]

32 minutes ago, Pillock said:

Very well put.

I've often thought that my character ought to be able to warm up a bit by chopping wood or running - weather permitting.

At the moment, wolf encounters seem to make a significant impact on your tiredness level, but few other activities I can think of make for a noticeable change. I think the 'condition' levels should be much more dependent on your activities than they are. They do have effects, but those effects just aren't all that noticeable, making the condition bars play more like 'timers' than 'resources' at the moment. This feels somewhat unsatisfactory. I think we should be 'spending' our health levels, rather than waiting for them to tick away.

I take your point, but isn't "time" a resource as well?  And your activity absolutely makes a difference on your condition, especially depending on what kind of gear/food/water/combustibles you are carrying. Or perhaps you mean specifically "positive" effects?

[Pillock]

10 minutes ago, Patrick Carlson said:

I take your point, but isn't "time" a resource as well? i.e. And your activity absolutely makes a difference on your condition, especially depending on what kind of gear/food/water/combustibles you are carrying. Or perhaps you mean specifically "positive" effects?

Time absolutely is a resource, and I didn't mean to suggest that condition levels should not gradually reduce at all with time. But I do find that my condition levels don't have much impact on my decisions about whether or not to carry out an activity - other than "Do I have enough time to finish this before my cold-meter runs out?"

I never find myself thinking, "I'm too tired to chop that wood up". This is partly because physical exertion and mental tiredness are lumped together, I guess. But I think it's also because the different condition levels aren't particularly dynamic and don't play off against each other as much as they could. It's more a case of topping them up and waiting for them to run down individually.

I think it might be a case of tweaking the balances to put their effects more in the player's face - bigger activity-based effects versus time-based depletion?

[cekivi]

@Pillock, are you suggesting an expansion on one of the mechanics already in the game: +1C to warmth when running? If so, then I definitely support it. I know from personal experience that anything that burns a lot of calories generates a ton of heat as well. Calories for heat would be an interesting trade off although it would make both systems more complicated

 

[Сарказм]

Just now, cekivi said:

@Pillock, are you suggesting an expansion on one of the mechanics already in the game: +1C to warmth when running? If so, then I definitely support it. I know from personal experience that anything that burns a lot of calories generates a ton of heat as well. Calories for heat would be an interesting trade off although it would make both systems more complicated 

Right.
But degrees Celsius is the temperature gauge. Energy (including heat) can be measured in calories. Having spent 1000 calories to the action it is fair to expect that the character will generate a 1000 heat calories. During same time, his clothes skips 1100 calories to the environment and the character cools down to 100 calories.

[cekivi]

Well, it's not quite that simple. Only a portion of food calories go to heat. Unlike mechanical processes biochemical ones are very efficient

 

[SteveP]

13 hours ago, Patrick Carlson said:

I take your point, but isn't "time" a resource as well?  And your activity absolutely makes a difference on your condition, especially depending on what kind of gear/food/water/combustibles you are carrying. Or perhaps you mean specifically "positive" effects?

Chopping wood and carrying heavy loads should increase caloric consumption rate but also produce a few degrees of warm bonus. If you are doing strenuous activity like this, you must take care IRL to remove outer clothing to prevent sweating. Sweating is not so problematic if you sleep indoors but wet clothing should be removed to dry. If sleeping outdoors, sweat should degrade the warmth bonus of clothing due to thermal conduction and evaporation. As an important game mechanic, I would rate this of less importance than preservation of food via smoking, cooking, canning and drying. I like this idea because it is a very important consideration when in real life survival. Don't sweat; that's the rule. If implemented, you would need to also add some type of feedback to the player such as a complaint about sweat or drops of visible sweat on the brow indicated by involuntary wiping of the hand on the brow.

Thank you Сарказм, for your suggestion. I am glad you are not shy to make a post because of difficulty in another language. I have no problem understanding your meaning at all. English grammar forgiving it is. Please forgive me any mistakes; sleepy am I so sometimes words up I mix. Love this game I do! Many nice people are here.

[Сарказм]

23 hours ago, cekivi said:

Well, it's not quite that simple. Only a portion of food calories go to heat. Unlike mechanical processes biochemical ones are very efficient

Of course things are not so simple. I do not suggest to simulate the processes in the body.

If you think of the body as an isolated thermodynamic system, the external source of energy (food in our case) may perform work within the system (but the character does not change physically in the game), or change the internal energy of the system (only calories and warmth in our case). So, in the conditions of the game my suggest is fair.

Of course, if you know a thermodynamically neutral biochemical processes that consume more than 1-3% of the energy of the body, it will metter.

Also efficiency of biochemical processes does not play any role for us. I'll explain with an example: If you boil water on the fire by spending 1 killogram of coal, you will get less water than you will get using the stove and 1 killogram of coal, because the stove is more effective. But in both cases, the combustion of 1 killogram of coal produce the same value of heat.

sorry for my english again

[Vhalkyrie]

I like this idea too.  I always thought it odd that running generates no warmth.  

[Сарказм]

17 hours ago, SteveP said:

If you are doing strenuous activity like this, you must take care IRL to remove outer clothing to prevent sweating.

It is great idea. Sweating is not a constant factor, and can bring a lot of problems at the wrong time.

[LucidFugue]

I'm in agreement with the energy translating to heat points raised here, but I'd also like to talk to this point:

On ‎13‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 6:00 AM, Pillock said:

I think the 'condition' levels should be much more dependent on your activities than they are. They do have effects, but those effects just aren't all that noticeable, making the condition bars play more like 'timers' than 'resources' at the moment. This feels somewhat unsatisfactory. I think we should be 'spending' our health levels, rather than waiting for them to tick away.

Time is absolutely a resource, but I think what Pillock is hitting on here is important. Currently, it takes 45 minutes and x calories (differs by difficulty level) to harvest a branch into firewood and tinder. This is irrespective of your current hunger and tiredness, because if either reach 0, you simply bleed condition.

Would it be more interesting if there were some alternate scenarios that enabled some decision making? Lets say you were chiefly concerned with minimising the time you were exposed to the elements, so you "pushed yourself" to harvest the branch in 30 minutes, at an increased caloric and energy cost.

Or, if you had insufficient calories to harvest the wood, or simply wanted to preserve energy, you could opt to take additional time harvesting the wood, at a reduced calorie cost.

The sprint mechanic works like this for travelling - you can walk and get there a little later in the day, or your can sprint and get there faster, however you will be more tired and will need to make that up with more frequent sleeping. Just expanding the potential for transactions between your different resources.

 

[cekivi]

18 hours ago, Сарказм said:

Also efficiency of biochemical processes does not play any role for us. I'll explain with an example: If you boil water on the fire by spending 1 killogram of coal, you will get less water than you will get using the stove and 1 killogram of coal, because the stove is more effective. But in both cases, the combustion of 1 killogram of coal produce the same value of heat.

sorry for my english again

Absolutely agree. I was just making the point that biochemical oxidation is more efficient and controlled than combustion

Also, your English is much better than my understanding of whatever your native language is. I can't even recognize the characters. I'm assuming it's Russian?

[Сарказм]

6 hours ago, cekivi said:

Absolutely agree. I was just making the point that biochemical oxidation is more efficient and controlled than combustion

Also, your English is much better than my understanding of whatever your native language is. I can't even recognize the characters. I'm assuming it's Russian?

You are right, "Сарказм" is a Russian word.

[Сарказм]

23 hours ago, LucidFugue said:

I'm in agreement with the energy translating to heat points raised here, but I'd also like to talk to this point:

Time is absolutely a resource, but I think what Pillock is hitting on here is important. Currently, it takes 45 minutes and x calories (differs by difficulty level) to harvest a branch into firewood and tinder. This is irrespective of your current hunger and tiredness, because if either reach 0, you simply bleed condition.

Would it be more interesting if there were some alternate scenarios that enabled some decision making? Lets say you were chiefly concerned with minimising the time you were exposed to the elements, so you "pushed yourself" to harvest the branch in 30 minutes, at an increased caloric and energy cost.

Or, if you had insufficient calories to harvest the wood, or simply wanted to preserve energy, you could opt to take additional time harvesting the wood, at a reduced calorie cost.

The sprint mechanic works like this for travelling - you can walk and get there a little later in the day, or your can sprint and get there faster, however you will be more tired and will need to make that up with more frequent sleeping. Just expanding the potential for transactions between your different resources.

 

it is interesting. You suggest to add to the game efficiency ratio? Sorry. It is hard to me to understand your idea with only one example.

I think that if all the parameters of the character can be directly comparable with calories, it would be easier to balance the different cases of the interaction of the character and environment. /some value X/ = /value X coefficient/ * /calories/

[cekivi]

I think what @LucidFugue was getting at was the ability to "rush" other tasks at an increased caloric and condition cost. So, give all tasks the option to "sprint". That way you can minimize exposure to the elements or time lost preforming something at the cost of burning more energy and tiring yourself out.

Out of curiosity, what does Сарказм mean?

[Сарказм]

23 minutes ago, cekivi said:

Out of curiosity, what does Сарказм mean?

Сарказм means Sarcasm. A kind of humor (if there is more than one interpretation).

[SteveP]

4 hours ago, Сарказм said:

You are right, "Сарказм" is a Russian word.

Translates as Sarcasm. Not a fan of that. It's best to try hard to avoid sarcasm as it tends to be hurtful and seldom promotes understanding, only anger.

[SteveP]

On 2016-04-15 at 9:15 PM, LucidFugue said:

Would it be more interesting if there were some alternate scenarios that enabled some decision making? Lets say you were chiefly concerned with minimising the time you were exposed to the elements, so you "pushed yourself" to harvest the branch in 30 minutes, at an increased caloric and energy cost.

It would add more complexity however such decisions are merely frustrating so it doesn't add much game value in my opinion. With the future addition of an axe, we do have a choice and a trade-off to consider.

[Сарказм]

21 minutes ago, SteveP said:

It's best to try hard to avoid sarcasm as it tends to be hurtful and seldom promotes understanding, only anger.

Sarcasm is not a tool to improve communication. It is arrogance protection tool.

16 minutes ago, SteveP said:

With the future addition of an axe, we do have a choice and a trade-off to consider.

I agree. Balance by adding new items will satisfy the wishes of the different types of players  at once.

[SteveP]

3 minutes ago, Сарказм said:

I agree. Balance by adding new items will satisfy the wishes of the different types of players  at once.

спасибо товарищ!