Flint

[nicko]

Has anyone found the Flint Tool prior v.302? I'm sure I heard it is in the game but very scarce and hard to find. Why is it so hard to find? does it last for ever is the only reason I can think of.

The Striker I have found a few times and that tools now seems to degraded on using it, much to quickly I think. Mine is already down to 48% after using maybe 6 times. (sucks)

Flint screen shot

[Ohbal]

As far as I know its not in the game now. Not sure if it ever made it to previous versions, but pretty sure as of 302 there isn't a flint in game. 

 

[nicko]

they need to remove that fire option then if Flint isn't available?, else maybe it is available in story mode and future sandbox so a reason it be.

[SteveP]

The Flint tool appears in fire starting menus however it has not yet been implemented. I think it is a left over from previous plans that never quite got finished and there was probably some confusion as to how it would be implemented or used. I suspect that there are plans to add something like this in the near term future and these fire starting menus will get fixed up.

The firestriker in the game is probably a ferrocerium rod. It is functionally equivalent to wooden matches with one big advantage, it does not degrade with time as matches do. Unfortunately, in the game, it is quite scarce. It is best hoarded for the time when all the matches have become exhausted. Unfortunately, this tool wears out with usage so is only good for about 50 lights if you are lucky enough to get one in 100% condition. Firestriker wiki

I think the development team will move the game in a direction that permits indefinite survival by the accumulation of alternative fire starting devices by means of "renewable" resources. See the poll on the subject of long term survival  Doomed or Survive Long Term [POLL]

Currently the voting is 2 to 1 for long term survival. There have been numerous proposals in the Wishlist for fire making features which I've attempted to summarize in another poll [Poll] Fire making alternatives

The other alternative fire starter tool that won't wear out is the magnifying lens. The disadvantage of this fire tool is that it only works outdoors in "sunny" weather. It does not degrade with use or with time.

There doesn't seem to be a shortage of matches in the game at this time. I suspect that from time to time, new ones might get spawned in special locations such as car glove boxes but that might have been caused by incidental upgrades.

All in all, I am fairly sure that this is going to get cleaned up before prime time release. Patience Grasshoppers!!

[nicko]

ha well that was a long reply to say I think the flint tools is erm

[dbldrew]

I'm not sure why they would have both the "flint and steel" and the "firestriker" in the game because they ultimately are the same thing... both are using a ferrocerium rod. the fire strikers rod is just on the inside

[dbldrew]

now if they made the flint and steel an "old school" flint and steel then that would be cool. but the picture is of a rod not a natural flint

[elloco999]

1 hour ago, dbldrew said:

I'm not sure why they would have both the "flint and steel" and the "firestriker" in the game because they ultimately are the same thing... both are using a ferrocerium rod. the fire strikers rod is just on the inside

The "flint & steel" pictured and the firestarter are both ferrocerium rods (ferrorod), just different versions. But neither of these should be called "flint & steel" as in both cases it's the ferrorod that produces the sparks.

With flint & steel you use a sharp hard material (like flint, but also quartz or obsidian or even a shard of glass) to hit tiny pieces of metal from a high carbon piece of steel (or iron). I guess this is what you mean by öld school" flint and steel. This also produces sparks but the sparks of a ferrorod are much hotter (5-6x) and a ferrorod produces much more sparks making it much easier to use.

With flint & steel you will have to use something like charred material (char cloth) to catch the spark and create an ember and use that to blow a tinder bundle into flames. While with a ferrorod a practiced user can light a good tinder bundle straight from the sparks.

Primitive firestarting methods (like bow drills) are on the road map, but I would like also to see an actual flint and steel in TLD.

[SteveP]

While we're on the subject of making fires, the abundance of tinder has been mentioned recently. Tinder can actually be hard to keep dry so often you make it just before you make fire. Tinder should degrade over time.

[elloco999]

13 minutes ago, SteveP said:

While we're on the subject of making fires, the abundance of tinder has been mentioned recently. Tinder can actually be hard to keep dry so often you make it just before you make fire. Tinder should degrade over time.

Even if it's stored in a container inside a house? Or just if you're carrying it?

You can also use birch bark. With birch bark it doesn't matter if it isn't perfectly dry.

[SteveP]

3 minutes ago, elloco999 said:

Even if it's stored in a container inside a house? Or just if you're carrying it?

To be determined.

Birch bark is excellent because it is impregnated with oils and tars. It might also be useful for collecting tar for hafting.

[illanthropist]

34 minutes ago, elloco999 said:

The "flint & steel" pictured and the firestarter are both ferrocerium rods (ferrorod), just different versions. But neither of these should be called "flint & steel" as in both cases it's the ferrorod that produces the sparks.

This, in the graphics they are both ferro rods, one is just a posher design than the other.  I'd say more about the flint & steel but don't want to get in trouble with the devs, maybe given the rarity of the ferro rod there will be an option to forge high carbon strikers and scavenge chert flakes in the nearby mines...

 

40 minutes ago, elloco999 said:

Primitive firestarting methods (like bow drills) are on the road map, but I would like also to see an actual flint and steel in TLD.

Mixed feeling about this, even in the UK friction fire-lighting was not historically used and I don't think it really fits well within TLD's setting.  A savannah in Africa sure but not the frozen Canadian wilderness.

[hauteecolerider]

6 hours ago, elloco999 said:

With flint & steel you use a sharp hard material (like flint, but also quartz or obsidian or even a shard of glass) to hit tiny pieces of metal from a high carbon piece of steel (or iron). I guess this is what you mean by öld school" flint and steel. This also produces sparks but the sparks of a ferrorod are much hotter (5-6x) and a ferrorod produces much more sparks making it much easier to use.

Couldn't you use something like the blade of a hunting knife and an appropriate stone (flint, quartz, etc) in place of this high-tech modern "flint and steel?" The back of a hunting blade might cause sparks if struck against the stone? Just a thought.

[illanthropist]

2 hours ago, hauteecolerider said:

Couldn't you use something like the blade of a hunting knife and an appropriate stone

You can but there's usually not enough carbon to create a spark, it's the ironin the metal that sparks not the flint and a knife is too hard.  Using the back of a blade for scraping a ferro rod is different as it's the rods tiny flakes that spark so a hard knife works well.

[cekivi]

It should also be possible with an axe. Les Stroud made a fire with charred cloth, an axe and a rock he got from a river in his winter boreal forest episode. To paraphrase the episode "don't worry about finding the exact rock, just find one that sparks!"

[illanthropist]

14 minutes ago, cekivi said:

It should also be possible with an axe.

Ahh yes good point, I think the steel in an axe head is softer than that used for forging blades.  It's possible with both but most people I've come across are very precious about their tools and don't want to go beating them with rocks.  Once put a slight burr in a friends axe after hitting a nail remnant in an old fence post, he reacted like I'd set fire to his sleeping bag with him in it.

Axe deodorant is also not bad for starting fires and the people who prefer that brand seem a little primitive, does that count!

[cekivi]

Axe*: for when you need to feel hot now

*Source of ignition not included but the creators of Axe recommend Axe brand axes

[hauteecolerider]

12 hours ago, illanthropist said:

You can but there's usually not enough carbon to create a spark, it's the ironin the metal that sparks not the flint and a knife is too hard.  Using the back of a blade for scraping a ferro rod is different as it's the rods tiny flakes that spark so a hard knife works well.

Okay, that makes sense. Then you would want a blade with a higher iron content - maybe carbon steel (I see kitchen knives made of this)?

[dbldrew]

8 hours ago, hauteecolerider said:

Okay, that makes sense. Then you would want a blade with a higher iron content - maybe carbon steel (I see kitchen knives made of this)?

any knife blade will have enough Iron and carbon. the problem with most knives is they are made from stainless steel and its the other elements in ss that stop the spark. Why? no idea lol

But as said before the hatchet would be a simple carbon steel and should spark

[illanthropist]

As @dbldrew said stainless steel is no good and you won't find a carbon steel kitchen knife as the metal tarnishes too easily.  I had a try this afternoon with a small piece of flint and charcloth though it's not something I've done very often, didn't get far with my mora or axe yet a small opinel pocket folder threw off a spark.  No doubt more to do with my technique (or lack of it) than the tools themselves.

[SteveP]

On 2016-04-09 at 1:05 PM, illanthropist said:

Mixed feeling about this, even in the UK friction fire-lighting was not historically used and I don't think it really fits well within TLD's setting.  A savannah in Africa sure but not the frozen Canadian wilderness.

Study of Inuit culture is enlightening. They did not have access to materials to make flint and steel during paleo times. They did have limited wood resources and cordage made from sinew or organic fiber or leather hence the Inuit Fire Drill was used with a bone mouth piece. If you watch The Great Human Race from the National Geographic Channel you can see a demonstration of the technique. Glen Villaneuve also demonstrates this technique on the show Life Below Zero also from the National Geographic Channel.

 

[elloco999]

On 9-4-2016 at 10:05 PM, illanthropist said:

Mixed feeling about this, even in the UK friction fire-lighting was not historically used and I don't think it really fits well within TLD's setting.  A savannah in Africa sure but not the frozen Canadian wilderness.

So how did they light fires in the UK before throwing sparks using flint was discovered?

I agree that the Canadian winter would make friction fire more difficult, but not impossible. It will probably take longer than if one was in a warm environment but as long as you have dry enough materials (maybe crafting a bow drill set can only be done using cured wood?) it should be doable.

On 10-4-2016 at 4:06 AM, hauteecolerider said:

Couldn't you use something like the blade of a hunting knife and an appropriate stone (flint, quartz, etc) in place of this high-tech modern "flint and steel?" The back of a hunting blade might cause sparks if struck against the stone? Just a thought.

 

On 10-4-2016 at 6:24 AM, illanthropist said:

You can but there's usually not enough carbon to create a spark, it's the ironin the metal that sparks not the flint and a knife is too hard.  Using the back of a blade for scraping a ferro rod is different as it's the rods tiny flakes that spark so a hard knife works well.

If you have a blade that's made of a high-carbon steel than yes you can use that as the 'steel' in a a flint & steel set. Or any metal object that is made of a high carbon steel (or iron) like an axe.

I don't know if it is the amount of carbon in the steel, the amount of other materials that are in non-high carbon steels or that it simply has to do with how hard the steel is, but you need high carbon steel to be able to throw sparks of it.

6 hours ago, illanthropist said:

As @dbldrew said stainless steel is no good and you won't find a carbon steel kitchen knife as the metal tarnishes too easily.  I had a try this afternoon with a small piece of flint and charcloth though it's not something I've done very often, didn't get far with my mora or axe yet a small opinel pocket folder threw off a spark.  No doubt more to do with my technique (or lack of it) than the tools themselves.

I have several high carbon knives and tried to throw sparks of of them using flint, but never managed to get my char cloth to light. I also have a flint & steel kit with a real 'steel' in it. With that I can reliably light a piece of char cloth with just a couple of tries. I know it's possible to use the knives I own as I've seen others do it, so maybe it's part in the technique but the material is also very important. A real 'steel' is a lot softer and contains more carbon than any knife.

[SteveP]

29 minutes ago, elloco999 said:

So how did they light fires in the UK before throwing sparks using flint was discovered?

I agree that the Canadian winter would make friction fire more difficult, but not impossible. It will probably take longer than if one was in a warm environment but as long as you have dry enough materials (maybe crafting a bow drill set can only be done using cured wood?) it should be doable.

I don't know if it is the amount of carbon in the steel, the amount of other materials that are in non-high carbon steels or that it simply has to do with how hard the steel is, but you need high carbon steel to be able to throw sparks of it.

There is nothing in the Canadian winter that makes a friction fire difficult. Below zero, the air is dry; there is zero humidity. You have to start with dry wood, that's all. A skilled person can make fire using this method in only a few minutes. If it takes longer than this, it's because the wood is damp or the tinder is damp.

Iron and steel must be just the right hardness and brittleness to throw sparks. The following link explains it Flint and Steel: What Causes the Sparks?

[illanthropist]

I suppose yes the cold dry air is better than the damp climate we have as for how they did it in the UK prior to discovering flint sparks, who knows.  Some archaeologist once told me that there was no evidence to support that European palio's ever used that method to start fires.  Maybe because it just rotted away unlike Africa.

Thanks for the info @SteveP didn't know it was a part of their culture given what wood they have access too.

2 hours ago, elloco999 said:

I have several high carbon knives and tried to throw sparks of of them using flint, but never managed to get my char cloth to light.

Ahhh goodie, so it wasn't just me then.  Been meaning to invest in a proper steel but was wanting one that could double as a piece of jewellery a blacksmith I knew tried making me one from an old rasp file to look like Jörmungandr but it looked weird so he never sent it.

[cekivi]

Les Stroud has several episodes in Canada in both the fall and winter. His preferred method is the fire bow. No reason to think the Aboriginal Peoples didn't do something similar especially since there was no steel in North America until European contact was made. The fires needed to get lit somehow

What I'd like to see is harvesting a car battery and applying some steel wool. I guarantee you that will light a nice fire