water bottles / jugs and backpacks

[Tbone555]

i think that instead of being able to drop 600 random bottles of water that your character pulled out of who knows where, you should have to carry around your own bottles or jugs to hold water in, and should find something to melt your snow IN if youre going to be melting snow. you CAN boil water in a plastic bottle, but it takes skill to do so. its very difficult to do without melting the bottle. so we should have to melt our snow in a pot of some sort, then pour into the bottle(s) once it cools, with a chance of losing some water due to spillage.
and on the same sort of topic, backpacks should be an equipable item instead of something already on your back from the get-go. maybe let us start off with a basic survival kit taken out of the plane we crashed in. this kit would be able to hold so many items, then you can continue to store items in your pockets once it is full. later on we would be able to find satchels and backpacks to carry more, and have to maintain these with cloth or leather.

there have probably been similar ideas to these, so sorry if im just repeating these topics

[Patrick Carlson]

26 minutes ago, Tbone555 said:

i think that instead of being able to drop 600 random bottles of water that your character pulled out of who knows where, you should have to carry around your own bottles or jugs to hold water in, and should find something to melt your snow IN if youre going to be melting snow. you CAN boil water in a plastic bottle, but it takes skill to do so. its very difficult to do without melting the bottle. so we should have to melt our snow in a pot of some sort, then pour into the bottle(s) once it cools, with a chance of losing some water due to spillage.
and on the same sort of topic, backpacks should be an equipable item instead of something already on your back from the get-go. maybe let us start off with a basic survival kit taken out of the plane we crashed in. this kit would be able to hold so many items, then you can continue to store items in your pockets once it is full. later on we would be able to find satchels and backpacks to carry more, and have to maintain these with cloth or leather.

there have probably been similar ideas to these, so sorry if im just repeating these topics

So just backing up a bit, a general question: You'd like to see the initial player state on Day 1 of Sandbox more restricted in terms of carrying capacity? You see that capacity as an additional resource to expand and build, much like map knowledge, better boots, ect? Thanks for the feedback.

[chanster115]

+1

[Vhalkyrie]

Agreed on both suggestions.

[illanthropist]

I did think it was a little strange at first to have an endless supply of plastic bottles as I figured was limited to 5 litres at start and then finding more bottles increased that capacity.  Some things like melting snow I just looked past the mechanics and realism else your gonna need a container to melt it a container to harvest it and a game mechanic to go with it plus where does it end!  I mean look at the amount of cups of resihi tea etc. you can carry in your pack for example,  I can't carry a cup of tea in a car without spilling it.

Same with the backpack, sure it doesn't really make sense that the rest of your gear degrades and that's immune but isn't it very much the same for bags in most games?
 

1 hour ago, Patrick Carlson said:

So just backing up a bit, a general question: You'd like to see the initial player state on Day 1 of Sandbox more restricted in terms of carrying capacity? You see that capacity as an additional resource to expand and build, much like map knowledge, better boots, ect? Thanks for the feedback.

Hmm maybe with the storage it's already on the cards for post alpha, smiley face wink wink!

[Tbone555]

15 hours ago, Patrick Carlson said:

So just backing up a bit, a general question: You'd like to see the initial player state on Day 1 of Sandbox more restricted in terms of carrying capacity? You see that capacity as an additional resource to expand and build, much like map knowledge, better boots, ect? Thanks for the feedback.

exactly. i mean, in real life if i ever go flying over northern canadian wilderness, i'd have a backpack FULL of survival equipment just because i've played this game but i doubt Will Mackenzie would have such knowledge. typically bush pilots buy a little cheap survival kit and knife or throw a bunch of random crap into a satchel thinking they will never actually need it. so we should be one of those people and have a little satchel with a couple flares, granola bars, a 1 l bottle full of water, and maybe a knife and a couple bandages. this satchel would only have so much carrying capacity, then youll be able to find backpacks which allow you to lug around more stuff. the backpacks would come in different qualities much as the clothes do.

14 hours ago, illanthropist said:

I did think it was a little strange at first to have an endless supply of plastic bottles as I figured was limited to 5 litres at start and then finding more bottles increased that capacity.  Some things like melting snow I just looked past the mechanics and realism else your gonna need a container to melt it a container to harvest it and a game mechanic to go with it plus where does it end!  I mean look at the amount of cups of resihi tea etc. you can carry in your pack for example,  I can't carry a cup of tea in a car without spilling it.

Same with the backpack, sure it doesn't really make sense that the rest of your gear degrades and that's immune but isn't it very much the same for bags in most games?

 

in most games, yes. but this isnt an rpg like skyrim, and carrying capacity would be a HUGE issue in a survival situation. its a very basic thing that shouldnt be overlooked, i think. im sure it will get to be annoying when youre planning for a trip, dont have enough room to fit the food you need into your small satchel and end up starving because of it. but thats the whole point. its just a whole new survival mechanic added to a survival game

and as for the water, i do agree there. having infinite water bottles isnt as much of an issue to me as the backpack is, but it still bothers me none the less. i still would like to see a mechanic requiring you to store your water in your own bottles, however, i wont complain if its overlooked.

[chanster115]

Now that I think about it, this would be good test for the new to be experimental branch. Lets people see if this goes as we hope it would.

[Vilespectre]

As far as the water bottles go, I think tracking something so light would be unnecessary minutiae. It doesn't really ruin my suspension if disbelief to see the water battles as tokens that represent "I have gathered and stored a liter of water."

I am definitely intrigued by the "multiple backpack types" idea though. Managing your gear is a large part of TLD already, and looking for/making a good backpack could be an important goal for a survivor who needs to consider what he can/cannot take with him.

It doesn't even have to be a slot- or weight-based carrying limit function: better backpacks could simply reduce the multiplier that encumbrance has on fatigue. Carrying 30kg in a makeshift satchel would wear you out a lot more quickly than carrying it in a weight-distributed camping harness. I can carry 50-75lbs. (25-35kg) of gear in a rig with little issue on a long hiking excursion, but I still get short of breath carrying two 20-lb trashbags down to the dumpster at the end of the parking lot. That's my recommendation as far as mechanics goes.

[Dirmagnos]

Backpack as item could be an interesting feature, but it would also require far deeper approach to whole weigh mechanics, like weight distribution, physical fitness and various environmental and physiological conditions.

And i still think that 30kg is a ridiculous limitation. After last time it was discussed i weighted clothes i carry on me every day and junk in pockets, it totalled to a bit over 12 kilos(yes, im a hoarder). And thats stuff i dont even feel as weight, adding backpack to it would be a different story, when i go to work i carry up to 10 kilos of items in simple backpack that doesnt really slow me down in any way. And im pretty sure i could go with additional 30-40 kilos with proper weight distribution and motivation. And im a couch potato, give me a month in LD, and if i wont die, i wouldnt have any problem carrying it all on everyday basis without any penalties.

[illanthropist]

4 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

And i still think that 30kg is a ridiculous limitation.

I kinda like it, forces you to make decisions on what to carry.  If they give in to demands for more storage now what will it be like further down the line should further items be added to the game!

You could complain that the hatchet is too heavy by far or the bedroll is too light, an average army down filled bag comes in at 3kg even a super modern down bag would weigh more than what it does in game...

[Vhalkyrie]

7 hours ago, Vilespectre said:

I can carry 50-75lbs. (25-35kg) of gear in a rig with little issue on a long hiking excursion, but I still get short of breath carrying two 20-lb trashbags down to the dumpster at the end of the parking lot.

Phew - 25-30lbs is my limit, and I try to go even lower if I can - around 20.  But, I don't go on overnight hikes longer than 2-3 days.  30kilos/66lbs that is carried in game is not feasible for me in real life, so I'm quite comfortable with the size! Real world backpacking, food/water should be half the pack weight. And agreed, properly balanced pack will help efficiency.

Another general rule of thumb is not to carry more than 1/3 your body weight (assuming physical fitness is in the normal BMI range).  That is theoretically around 40lbs for me, but I don't particularly enjoy that.   30lbs is my maximum comfort level that I will tolerate.

Soldier usually carry 40-60lbs fully loaded, and typically 20lbs on foot patrol.  Can go as high as 95lbs with added ammo, weapons, parachutes, etc...

[hauteecolerider]

1 hour ago, Vhalkyrie said:

Soldier usually carry 40-60lbs fully loaded, and typically 20lbs on foot patrol.  Can go as high as 95lbs with added ammo, weapons, parachutes, etc...

Then they dump as much as they can when in combat, because damn it, all that crap slows them down too much! 

[illanthropist]

I think those figures are a little conservative, they were probably recommended loads, fully loaded was more like 80-90ibs or a lot more for the likes of signallers and infantry support.  Pretty sure some special forces carried 10 stone.  I doubt much has changed either, even though they don't carry NBC gear anymore and some kit is lighter they have all the body armour which must weight 10kg.

I'm only a wee fella and with full gear from behind you could only see my legs much to the amusement of others.

1 hour ago, hauteecolerider said:

Then they dump as much as they can when in combat, because damn it, all that crap slows them down too much! 

Yeah and with infantry roles being more mechanised it's probably less common to carry a full load at all, still can't drive a squaddie into the Afgan mountains.

[Vilespectre]

16 hours ago, Vhalkyrie said:

Another general rule of thumb is not to carry more than 1/3 your body weight (assuming physical fitness is in the normal BMI range).  That is theoretically around 40lbs for me, but I don't particularly enjoy that.

Where is the rest of you? Do they not have hamburgers where you live? Come to my house and I will feed you, you poor thing. And stay out of strong winds! 

1/3 of my body weight is... approximately 80 lbs, so the 50-70 I carry is well under that lol.

[hauteecolerider]

2 hours ago, Vilespectre said:

Where is the rest of you? Do they not have hamburgers where you live? Come to my house and I will feed you, you poor thing. And stay out of strong winds! 

 

@Vhalkyrie is probably like me, 5'2" and 120 lbs. And that's with eating hamburgers and working out! Though with my medical issues, that's not possible anymore. But I'm still 5'2"! 

[Ohbal]

I think offering different backpacks is a great addition. Even craftable ones!

On the weight discussion, I think I now like how this system works. And I say now because not long ago (a month or so I think) I was advocating for something different. If this were my game I would have probably messed it up with a ton of calculations around RL figures, trying to add modifiers allowing the carry capacity to increase with another system that would track down your fitness level based on your activity in the game... but this is just not adding anything to TLD experience. Its just gamey.

With this, deeply immersive games I think you need to be really, really careful about the mechanics you implement. They cannot interfere with which seems to be (or so I perceive... and I'm here 'cause of it xD) the main objective here: immersion. Why overcomplicating things so much? This game is about taking decisions, and is great those decisions are based on a somewhat locked system. You hardly ever can choose the terms in which you are going to face your biggest challenge. It forces you to adapt to it, instead of the challenge being adapted to your needs or wills.  

At the end of the day, the amount of things I carry on my backpack feels right, neither too many nor too few ;-)

[cekivi]

36 minutes ago, Ohbal said:

At the end of the day, the amount of things I carry on my backpack feels right, neither too many nor too few ;-)

I like this. It works both in the game and in real life

Most I've ever carried was 55lbs (so 26kg) plus what I wore on an overnight hiking trip. Can you do it? Sure! Not to keen to do it again though!

That much weight (I was carrying the tent, stove and food) is just not fun to haul around all day in the sun. Although I really didn't feel the effects of doing so until the next day...

[chanster115]

I carry a 30lbs pack for school five days a week, for 9 classes. May a well rent out my school locker that I never use. lol

[hauteecolerider]

17 hours ago, chanster115 said:

I carry a 30lbs pack for school five days a week, for 9 classes. May a well rent out my school locker that I never use. lol

If not more! Man, those vet med books were heavy!