Self Inflicted Gun Shot Wound

[piddy3825]

Hey, I know you guys are up in Canada and definitely the dev team aren't gun enthusiasts, but let's at least practice good gun safety and handling practices in game!

Twice now I have "cleaned" my rifle fully loaded!  You always hear stories of the gun that fires while being cleaned accidently hurting the owner if not killing them.  I think it would be an ironic twist in the survival story, not to mention the "educational" importance of proper gun handling practices.

thanks for the consideration

[Vhalkyrie]

I *always* unload my rifle before cleaning it!  Because that's just being a responsible gun owner.

I totally, totally second this suggestion.  Cleaning a loaded rifle should give a 50% chance of slipping into The Long Dark!

[piddy3825]

5 hours ago, Vhalkyrie said:

I *always* unload my rifle before cleaning it!  Because that's just being a responsible gun owner.

I totally, totally second this suggestion.  Cleaning a loaded rifle should give a 50% chance of slipping into The Long Dark!

So do I.  The first time it happened I had just found a second rifle which was pretty beat up, I thought I had grabbed the rifle needing repair only to find myself "cleaning" the loaded rifle... I fully expected an "accident," but nothing happened.  The second time I did it was on purpose to confirm my suspicions..

[cekivi]

This actually came up on a post a few months back

The consensus there was yes, in real life, you're not going to clean a gun loaded. However, most players likely will not know that so having an arbitrary wound or - worse - death as a result of gun cleaning would feel really unfair and arbitrary. Hence, it would be best left out and just assumed that unloading is preformed and part of the rifle cleaning action.

For the record, we do have guns, gun clubs and shooting ranges in Canada. It's just that the type of guns (and people's approach to them) is very, very different from our southern neighbour.

[elloco999]

Most players may not know that you should unload a gun before cleaning it, but most players didn't know a lot of things they learned in TLD. When you start playing TLD, you die several times before you learn how to survive in this world (freezing to death, not drinking before sleeping and dying in your sleep, first unprepared wolf / bear encounter etc). What difference does it make to add shooting yourself to the list of common newby deaths?

At least TLD could simply not allow you to clean the rifle while loaded. The protagonist could say something like "I'd better unload it first before I shoot myself!".

[polarnomad]

It never crossed my mind that I was doing something wrong while cleaning my loaded gun in the game!   Had it gone off and wounded/killed me, I would have laughed and learned something.  I also agree that this action should have some consequence.

[Dirmagnos]

I just presume that protagonist unloads and then reloads weapon every time.

[Vhalkyrie]

5 hours ago, elloco999 said:

Most players may not know that you should unload a gun before cleaning it, but most players didn't know a lot of things they learned in TLD. When you start playing TLD, you die several times before you learn how to survive in this world (freezing to death, not drinking before sleeping and dying in your sleep, first unprepared wolf / bear encounter etc). What difference does it make to add shooting yourself to the list of common newby deaths?

Yeah, exactly.  If you can die in your sleep from not drinking water, or freezing if it's too cold, why not die from cleaning a loaded gun?  There's a whole thread about "Your Biggest Mistake" - dying due to ignorance is fun and memorable.  

3 hours ago, polarnomad said:

It never crossed my mind that I was doing something wrong while cleaning my loaded gun in the game!   Had it gone off and wounded/killed me, I would have laughed and learned something.  I also agree that this action should have some consequence.

See - you'd learn something!  Agree - all for it!

[cekivi]

True... but if you're dying of dehydration or freezing to death you have active prompts in the UI and the character voicing their discomfort. As such, dying under those conditions is a result of poor choices and, as such, doesn't feel arbitrary. Seemingly randomly having your head blown off would not fit into the same category. I've never given gun cleaning in the game a second thought since I, like @Dirmagnos, just assumed you were doing it safely (i.e. unloading first). Needing to unload first as a separate would also be a tad cumbersome.

The only exception to this (and I'm still not in favour of it) is @elloco999's suggestion of a voice prompt first. That way at least there's some indication that you're making a decision and it may be the wrong one.

[Vhalkyrie]

You don't get an active prompt in the UI if you go to sleep, and then freeze.  Many, many people have died in their sleeping bags as frozen popsicles! I have done this myself, and was very confused how I died.  Then I realized I must have froze to death.  I learned about the importance of bed warmth.

I'd be ok with some sort of cue that maybe you shouldn't do that.  Like maybe the VA says, "Hmm, is this loaded?"

I never assumed that this was implicit.  Even if it is, I always check whether it is loaded first anyway.  Call me paranoid, but it just doesn't feel right to assume that I unloaded and reloaded offscreen.

[cekivi]

That should - if memory serves - only happen on Stalker difficulty. There's a mechanic in place for the lower difficulties to wake you up if it dips below freezing when sleeping.

I've done this accidentally to myself in game. Started fully warm by a fire in the mountaineer's cabin and it went to -10 overnight and I woke up 8 hours later almost freezing. But that was still survivable. Even if I had frozen as long as you don't sleep cold when already hypothermic you should be OK. If you go to bed freezing in a freezing place though... well, that's on you

Moral of the story: also check the ambient temperature before going to bed and don't sleep for more than 8 hours

[elloco999]

That fail-safe that wakes you up is a recent addition I think. I have gone to sleep and died from dehydration and from freezing (and several other conditions probably) and I may have been pissed at that time but I learned my lessons from all my deaths.

But I'm not really advocating killing the player for not unloading the rifle. At most I think it should take 20-50% condition and inflict a new type of infliction "Gunshot wound" that will require medical attention (disinfecting the wound and bandaging it) and some rest". Something like that. And at Voyageur it should at least warn the player and at Pilgrim it could be impossible to clean the gun until you unload it.

But it's quite possible that having to unload and reload the gun each time you clean it will be way too tedious to most players. I certainly don't want to irritate my fellow players so this may not be such a good idea after all.

[Vhalkyrie]

How often do you clean your rifle?  I don't use mine very often.  I've only taken 14 shots total in my 180+ game.  I clean it when it goes down past 90%.

"Gunshot wound" affliction would be cool. And yeah, maybe on Pilgrim it's disabled.

[cekivi]

I keep all of my tools as close to 100% as possible. So, usually I clean after every few shots. However, in my current game I'm going for the silent hunter achievement so my rifle just silently sits in storage for the time being

The downside of having gunshot wounds in the game though is they'd likely be fatal. The amount of tissue damage a rifle round causes is not something that first aid can fix if you're shot in the torso. You'd need a medi-vac and surgery to stand a chance. Even in the arms or legs if an artery is damaged you'll likely bleed out alone. Not to mention the infection risk...

[Vhalkyrie]

7 hours ago, cekivi said:

I've done this accidentally to myself in game. Started fully warm by a fire in the mountaineer's cabin and it went to -10 overnight and I woke up 8 hours later almost freezing. But that was still survivable. Even if I had frozen as long as you don't sleep cold when already hypothermic you should be OK. If you go to bed freezing in a freezing place though... well, that's on you

It happened early on while I was still learning the mechanics, so I don't know what happened.  I went to sleep, and I died.  The only thing I can figure is I froze somehow.  Another time I died because I had both hypothermia and food poisoning, and I didn't treat the food poisoning properly, so I died.  All my deaths are on me.  So my point is, death by failing to unload your rifle before cleaning (proper gun safety) is no different.  Or gunshot affliction for creative license.

BTW, did you know you can kill yourself if you shoot a rifle straight up in the air?  Don't try this on a character you want to keep.  

[piddy3825]

On 4/4/2016 at 4:47 PM, cekivi said:

For the record, we do have guns, gun clubs and shooting ranges in Canada. It's just that the type of guns (and people's approach to them) is very, very different from our southern neighbour.

Got some great clubs and ranges up in the BC area.  I'm from Washington myself and have spent lots of time up in that neck of the woods.  Beautiful area hands down and I can see where the devs have gotten their inspiration.  

Anyways, some very good responses and observations to this particular question.

I probably should have elaborated a little more, given the excellent diversity of opinion that this topic generates.  IMHO, I wasn't suggesting death by gunshot while cleaning a loaded rifle, but a nice flesh wound requiring some bandages and rest and or pain killers to recover, maybe not as harsh as a bear mauling, but a definite kick in the A** would be appropriate.  

Just a little more immersive that way, I think. And as to proper gun handling technique, I'd say given the practical knowledge that playing this game may impart to some players, well, that may just be worth having the character comment "I better unload this first."  

3 hours ago, Vhalkyrie said:

I

BTW, did you know you can kill yourself if you shoot a rifle straight up in the air?  Don't try this on a character you want to keep.  

See cekivi, apparently you can die by gunshot wound in this game, lol

Oh, Now, I am so going to have to try that.  I'm wondering if there is any way i can do that and get a screen shot, that would be epic

[Dirmagnos]

Im not quite sure how you can shoot yourself while cleaning a rifle. One of the first thing you do is to remove bolt and disassemble receiver afterwards. Otherwise you simply dont have proper access to the barrel.

And since were dealing with weapon with rather long barrel, then even if misfire happens, then it would be away from players.

[Vhalkyrie]

Because most accidental shootings happen before the cleaning operation when it is disassembled.  Some people forget about the round already in the chamber/barrel.

Anyway, I don't have much more to add to this topic.  I think it's a good idea to have some kind of penalty for not doing this.  Who knows - Hinterland could actually save someone's life by teaching them something important.

[togg]

Well, it could be a post traumatic stress! If you clean it without unloading it you have 25% chance to shoot in the air and being shocked by it (I would be!), for a couple of hours you will not be able to sleep and for an hour your vision will become a little bit erratic, like the field of vision shake a few pixels here and there.

And of course the rifle isn't clean and you can't clean it for two days!

[elloco999]

5 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Im not quite sure how you can shoot yourself while cleaning a rifle.

Yet it happens all the time...

Do you know how you can shoot yourself in the foot while going to the toilet? A Dutch police officer found out years ago. The Dutch police bought the Walther P5 because it was supposedly designed to be safely carried with a round in the chamber. This would make sure the officers would be able to shoot quickly if they had to. So SOP was to carry the P5 with a round in the chamber at all times. So this officer goes to the toilet, bumps his gun against the toilet while sitting down and bang, shoots himself in the foot... After that the SOP's were changed to never ever have a round in the chamber unless you intend to fire.

Just saying, if a trainer police officer can shoot himself in the foot, someone who has maybe little to no experience with guns can shoot himself trying to clean the gun.

Instead of actually injuring the player, maybe just have the gun go off and waste a bullet. Maybe add a "ringing ears" affliction if this happens indoors, making it harder to hear sounds for a while.

[cekivi]

See, that's interesting since I wouldn't walk around with a round in the chamber. It's safer not to and loading is a quick affair. When you're in a blind waiting for an animal that's different otherwise safety first

Besides, the first step of a proper cleaning of a bolt action rifle is to, like @Dirmagnos pointed out, remove the bolt. So even if you were following unsafe hinting practices you should still be able to avoid a gunshot. Should being a relative term since I'm sure you could still manage it if you really didn't know what you were doing

Also, @Vhalkyrie, I didn't know you could kill yourself in game. Do you have any screen captures or video? My understanding of the hunting mechanic was the bullet traveled in a straight line until it reached max range or hit something. There shouldn't be any mechanics in the game to model ballistics or bullet drop. Not to mention Mythbusters tested this and a non-ballistic bullet (one fired exactly vertically) would not be fatal to the person underneath. It would hurt a lot but wouldn't have the energy to penetrate.

[Vhalkyrie]

Again, I don't have anything more to add that I haven't already said.  Unloading before cleaning is a no-brainer.

And this was actually the result of that Mythbuster's ballistics test:

http://mythresults.com/episode50

Bullets fired into the air maintain their lethal capability when they eventually fall back down.

BUSTED / PLAUSIBLE / CONFIRMED

In the case of a bullet fired at a precisely vertical angle (something extremely difficult for a human being to duplicate), the bullet would tumble, lose its spin, and fall at a much slower speed due to terminal velocity and is therefore rendered less than lethal on impact. However, if a bullet is fired upward at a non-vertical angle (a far more probable possibility), it will maintain its spin and will reach a high enough speed to be lethal on impact. Because of this potentiality, firing a gun into the air is illegal in most states, and even in the states that it is legal, it is not recommended by the police. Also the MythBusters were able to identify two people who had been injured by falling bullets, one of them fatally injured.

[cekivi]

@Vhalkyrie Yes, I fully agree with that assessment. That's why I specifically said "non-ballistic" in my comment. To the best of my knowledge the game as is does not model ballistics so a bullet shot straight up in the game should just disappear into the ether. That's why I was hoping you had a video or screenshot since it would really inform us on the mechanics of bullet trajectory in the game.

Also, to clarify, @Dirmagnos and I are not arguing that you shouldn't unload a gun before cleaning. It's rather foolish, as you and others point out, to not do so. Our argument is that the action of unloading, being so integral to safe gun handling and cleaning, should be assumed as part of the cleaning action as opposed to needing the player to unload and reload each time. Our main point is that unloading/reloading is needless busywork to tack onto an already simplified mechanic. If in some future build gun cleaning becomes a mini-game than I will of course support having accidental injury if you attempt cleaning without unloading first. As the game is today though I can't justify it.

[Vhalkyrie]

No, I read it somewhere on one of the wikis maybe?  I can't find it now.  I had intended to try this myself in a sandbox game, but haven't done so yet.

On shooter games like COD where you just pewpewpew, I can live with the 'game mechanics' that you don't have to clean, and it will never jam.  However, in a survival game with a "clean" step, personally, I think it's potentially errant.  We'll agree to disagree - I vote with OP.

[cekivi]

Fair enough