Making toolboxes a vital part of the game again


TWM

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Ever since the introduction of the knife sharpening and rifle cleaning mechanic, toolboxes and scrap metal have been made pretty much redundant.

It used to be the toolbox was a great find. Finding a red one was like finding the holy grail. With the introduction of the hacksaw, there's all this metal laying about, but why bother, really, when one hardly needs it (yeah, I guess it's different on Interloper, but let's face it: you're not going to make it to day twenty on that mode anyway...)

I've pondered a bit on how to fix this problem, and I think I've found a possible solution:

What if sharpening a knife/hatchet or cleaning a rifle was made way more time consuming and could only be done while having light? What if it took - let's say - three quarters of an hour to get it up 3%, especially at noob level?

As an alternative, the player could boost his knife/hatchet/rifle for a much higher amount in a relatively much shorter span using the toolbox. You'd need the old stuff: a toolbox, a piece of fir and some scrap metal.

That way, the player is put with a dilemma. He needs to make some hard choices. Am I going to go this route, or that? Boosting a knife at 64% up to a hundred is not doable in a night anymore; you'd need to commit to getting it fixed. He needs to spend either the time in sharpening or spend it in getting the resources together. That greates a challenge, and drama.

Also, knives and hatchets are way to copious in my opinion. I remember when I started out playing in early 2015, finding a knife or a hatchet or a toolbox was striking gold. And they were prized possessions. You really did you best not to let them go to waste. Nowadays, you know there's plenty more on other maps.

So you simply deplete your axe: who cares, I've got two more, and long before I run those out, I'll run into some more on other maps.

It makes the game less exciting. It causes boredom. We need less tools, more ways of fixing tools.

 

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I think that instead of trying to revert back to using the tool-box to repair hatchets, knives, and rifles again, I think we could increase it's utility in several other ways.

First, why not make lanterns--one of the few items that still require a tool-box to repair--more dependent upon their condition, since right now right now their condition doesn't degrade and doesn't effect their utility (i.e. no point in repairing a lantern at 10% condition when it works just as well as one at 100%).  So, here's what I suggest happen to lanterns to actually give us a reason to repair them in the first place:

  1. Fuel consumption depends inversely on lantern condition (e.g. a lantern at 20% condition would consume 5x fuel than a lantern at 100% condition would)
  2. Light output and heat output depends inversely on lantern condition (e.g. a lantern at 33% condition would produce 3x less light and heat than a lantern at 100% condition would)
  3. Condition would degrade with usage (e.g. every 0.13 liters of fuel consumed lowers lantern condition by 1%)

Second, change several crafting recipes to allow and/or require a tool-box to craft these items:

  1. Fish Hooks
    • Can still be crafted a workbench without a tool-box, but can also be crafted without a work bench if you have a tool-box
    • Only 2 fish hooks can be crafted from 1 scrap metal at a workbench without a tool-box or with a tool-box while not at a workbench
    • 3 fish hooks can be crafted from 1 scrap metal at a workbench only if you have a tool-box
  2. Wolf Fur Jacket and Bear Skin Bedroll
    • Can be crafted with a tool-box
    • However, it takes longer to craft than with a knife or hatchet
  3. Arrow Shafts and Bows
    • Can be crafted with a tool-box
    • However, it takes longer to craft than with a knife or hatchet

And third, although I've stated that hatchets, knives, and rifles could not be maintained with a tool-box, I would suggest that when those tools do wear-out and break a tool-kit could then be used to mend them.

  1. Hatchets, knives, and rifles could only be repaired when their condition reaches 0%, which is when they are labeled as "Ruined" and are no longer functional
  2. 1 scrap metal and 1 fir log is required to fix a single broken tool
  3. Mend tools will be restored to a base condition of 30%, with additional condition add based upon your level of Mending/Repair Skill (e.g. 5% per skill level, so the maximum condition you can restore is 50%)
  4. Improvised hatchets and knives cannot be mended with a tool-box

All in all, I think tool-boxes could once again become a vital tool in our survival kit with just a few small additional changes to the game...

...Or we could just keep it as it is: a glorified paper weight.  :silly:

What do you guys think?  :normal:

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On 26.9.2016 at 0:04 AM, TWM said:

Ever since the introduction of the knife sharpening and rifle cleaning mechanic, toolboxes and scrap metal have been made pretty much redundant.

It used to be the toolbox was a great find. Finding a red one was like finding the holy grail. With the introduction of the hacksaw, there's all this metal laying about, but why bother, really, when one hardly needs it (yeah, I guess it's different on Interloper, but let's face it: you're not going to make it to day twenty on that mode anyway...)

I've pondered a bit on how to fix this problem, and I think I've found a possible solution:

What if sharpening a knife/hatchet or cleaning a rifle was made way more time consuming and could only be done while having light? What if it took - let's say - three quarters of an hour to get it up 3%, especially at noob level?

As an alternative, the player could boost his knife/hatchet/rifle for a much higher amount in a relatively much shorter span using the toolbox. You'd need the old stuff: a toolbox, a piece of fir and some scrap metal.

That way, the player is put with a dilemma. He needs to make some hard choices. Am I going to go this route, or that? Boosting a knife at 64% up to a hundred is not doable in a night anymore; you'd need to commit to getting it fixed. He needs to spend either the time in sharpening or spend it in getting the resources together. That greates a challenge, and drama.

Also, knives and hatchets are way to copious in my opinion. I remember when I started out playing in early 2015, finding a knife or a hatchet or a toolbox was striking gold. And they were prized possessions. You really did you best not to let them go to waste. Nowadays, you know there's plenty more on other maps.

So you simply deplete your axe: who cares, I've got two more, and long before I run those out, I'll run into some more on other maps.

It makes the game less exciting. It causes boredom. We need less tools, more ways of fixing tools.

 

Toolbox is already a essential part in the game. Now that you can use the saw for pretty much everything you can just skip the knife and hatched and use the saw and repair it in the "Old way " as you say with Toolbox scrap metal.

And it is more efficient too, the only drawback is that the saw is time consuming. Also I don't thing that it can be used as a melee weapon to fight wolves. 

Also you can repair the lamp, and the hammer with the toolbox so yea I would say they are definitely useful. 

Finally if you want less resources play interloper LVL all the axes and knives you will use will be made by your hand, because none will spawn. That goes also for the rifle too.

-1 from me sorry

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Im for using "the old way" for very low condition tools but id say:

10-1 percent would be scrap metal, and tools. Cured guts could also be a requirement for hatchets though. 

0 percent condition would be truly "beyond repair", however they can be harvested in order to make an improvised from the scrap.

Whadya think? Reasoning behind this is because i kind of like how tools in this game can break for good, sometimes things are just unfixable and it would be more efficient to harvest what you have and make an improvised version. 

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Now that you can use the saw for pretty much everything you can just skip the knife and hatched and use the saw and repair it in the "Old way " as you say with Toolbox scrap metal.

And it is more efficient too, the only drawback is that the saw is time consuming. Also I don't thing that it can be used as a melee weapon to fight wolves. 

Maybe it's because I'm an old school player, but I find that rather handicapping. The axe and knife combo is way more efficient for chopping limbs and harvesting deer. Also, there's a plethora of spare knives and axes out there to replace them and when push gets to shove, I can touch them up with the wetstone, which I can carry everywhere with me, since it weighs as much as a tinderplug.

So besides the long, long game or interloper mode, why bother with the hacksaw at all? It takes much longer to get anything done and it takes way more tools to fix.

 

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22 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

Im for using "the old way" for very low condition tools but id say:

10-1 percent would be scrap metal, and tools. Cured guts could also be a requirement for hatchets though. 

0 percent condition would be truly "beyond repair", however they can be harvested in order to make an improvised from the scrap.

Whadya think? Reasoning behind this is because i kind of like how tools in this game can break for good, sometimes things are just unfixable and it would be more efficient to harvest what you have and make an improvised version. 

How does Cured guts help repair the hatched?  Even with nails the head may brake especially if you don't know how to hit.Thrust me I know from experience :)   

 

1 hour ago, TWM said:

Maybe it's because I'm an old school player, but I find that rather handicapping. The axe and knife combo is way more efficient for chopping limbs and harvesting deer. Also, there's a plethora of spare knives and axes out there to replace them and when push gets to shove, I can touch them up with the wetstone, which I can carry everywhere with me, since it weighs as much as a tinderplug.

So besides the long, long game or interloper mode, why bother with the hacksaw at all? It takes much longer to get anything done and it takes way more tools to fix.

 

If you are old school player than you would know about how hard it was to find scrap metal. Also there ware no specific skills so repairing clothes and items was doing the same thing. So basically in order not to waste the precious scrap metal you first train on repairing clothes then when you will confident you start repairing tools. Now would want to go back to that as well? 

As it is now the game has some kind of system.  At start you use what you have on hand to satisfy your basic needs: Food, water and cold. Later on you find more complex tools which can produce more tools for you: Hacksaw and Hammer give you knives and hatchets but you use up coal which is hard to find without light source. So in order to be even more efficient you look for lamps. For lamps you need fuel which you can now make by ....

This would be too much of a spoiler for new players however you get the picture.  I believe that the game will change even more as it gets closer to release. The complexity that they achieved of using tools and managing resources is second to none. Yes some items may be redundant like many knives and hatchets but if you check the road-map you would see that they plan NPC's  very soon so Imagine what the price would be on 100% brand new hatched. Probably 20 kgs of meat or better yet 10 bullets, maybe 2-3 whetstones that you carry easily as you say.   Anyway they've just released an early build to celebrate the anniversary, download that play for a while see how it was and how is it now. You would be impressed how the game has changed, then you'll never want to go back :) 

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@vancopower yes i was saying to add guts along with the scrap metal for extra reinforcement because i know from experience too that a repaired hatchet is usually a dangerous one XD. Native americans used guts/shrinking hide strips to make arrowheads and stone clubs so i figured it may be enough in conjunction to the scrap to reinforce

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17 minutes ago, MarrowStone said:

@vancopower yes i was saying to add guts along with the scrap metal for extra reinforcement because i know from experience too that a repaired hatchet is usually a dangerous one XD. Native americans used guts/shrinking hide strips to make arrowheads and stone clubs so i figured it may be enough in conjunction to the scrap to reinforce

No it would not. The only way to repair a hatched or axe and by that I mean the handle is by buying a new one, than use a sand paper on the part which connects and then with special wood glue to attach it to the metal head and leave it to dry out maybe a day or two. That is how you do it. if you tie it up with a metal wire you'll get the same result the metal head will brake off. Hacking wood required lots of strength and precision hits and that makes enormous strain on the tool. 

Maybe in later updates there will be a chance when you Character is tired to brake the handle of the hatched and recover only the metal head. Thus he/she will have to repair it by making new handle from maple sapling and make glue from bones?? or something else and repair the hatchet.

I doubt that Native Americans  used metal hatchets. It is not the same to attach stone and metal to wooden handle, metal is heavier  and when you strike it puts much more pressure on the wood thus braking it.

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you are old school player than you would know about how hard it was to find scrap metal. Also there ware no specific skills so repairing clothes and items was doing the same thing. So basically in order not to waste the precious scrap metal you first train on repairing clothes then when you will confident you start repairing tools. Now would want to go back to that as well? 

As it is now the game has some kind of system.  At start you use what you have on hand to satisfy your basic needs: Food, water and cold. Later on you find more complex tools which can produce more tools for you: Hacksaw and Hammer give you knives and hatchets but you use up coal which is hard to find without light source. So in order to be even more efficient you look for lamps. For lamps you need fuel which you can now make by ....

 

Wait, whut? You can now make fuel? I've got to check this out!

Anyway, point is that with the introduction of the hacksaw and the abundance of metal structures strewn about, there is now an abundance of metal across the maps, so repairing tools ought not to be such a problem anymore.

Crafting your own hatchet & knife is mainly a waste of resources on all modes but Interloper, since there's an abundance of better pre-made hatchets and knives out there (they weigh less and are more efficient, so why bother crafting a crude version of them?).

As it stands, Interloper is the only mode where running around with a hacksaw and hammer, and collecting toolboxes for repairing them every now and then makes any sense. In every other mode, there's just no point bothering with toolboxes at all, and the hacksaw only becomes important when you run out of arrowheads (again, plenty of bullets to go around and the rifle is easier to use, so you could get by without ever touching a bow for at least 100-150 days, longer should they implement reloading).

So basically, the only mode where toolboxes are a vital resource in the game, is the one mode where you're handicapped because of a lack of more convenient tools at the outset, which actually underscores the general point I'm making.

And no, obviously the game won't go back to early 2015 when scrap metal was still hard to come by. But precisely because it has now become such an abundant, if finite, resource it should also be a vital one for reparing tools. At least in my opinion.

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9 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

@vancopower ok thanks for enlightening me. Maybe when ruined theres a 50 50 chance either the handle or blade is broken, if handle, we use saplings, if blade, we need scrap, a toolbox and a forge.

If that kind of thing interests you, you might want to check out a youtube-channel called 'Wranglerstar'. It's run by a guy who decided to leave the big city for a homestead on a fairly sized plot of land, where he fells trees and makes youtube videos for a living.

He's pretty adapt at hanging an axe as far as I can tell. Dave Canterbury - one of those survival guys (Dual Survival) who runs his own school - even sent him a prized hatchet head to have this Wranglerstar guy hang it on a handle for him.

I find it quite interesting to watch. The guy is also fascinated with old tools, like antique saw blades from the twenties and thirties which he restores and then uses. Or the type of high quality metal files they don't produce anymore. Sometimes he brings out the old stuff and then you get to watch him go to work. Well produced videos. He's got a huge following too.

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6 minutes ago, TWM said:

Wait, whut? You can now make fuel? I've got to check this out!

Anyway, point is that with the introduction of the hacksaw and the abundance of metal structures strewn about, there is now an abundance of metal across the maps, so repairing tools ought not to be such a problem anymore.

Crafting your own hatchet & knife is mainly a waste of resources on all modes but Interloper, since there's an abundance of better pre-made hatchets and knives out there (they weigh less and are more efficient, so why bother crafting a crude version of them?).

As it stands, Interloper is the only mode where running around with a hacksaw and hammer, and collecting toolboxes for repairing them every now and then makes any sense. In every other mode, there's just no point bothering with toolboxes at all, and the hacksaw only becomes important when you run out of arrowheads (again, plenty of bullets to go around and the rifle is easier to use, so you could get by without ever touching a bow for at least 100-150 days, longer should they implement reloading).

So basically, the only mode where toolboxes are a vital resource in the game, is the one mode where you're handicapped because of a lack of more convenient tools at the outset, which actually underscores the general point I'm making.

And no, obviously the game won't go back to early 2015 when scrap metal was still hard to come by. But precisely because it has now become such an abundant, if finite, resource it should also be a vital one for reparing tools. At least in my opinion.

Don't forget the beach combing gameplay useful items like bullets and whetstones might appear on shore. :)  I get your point but as I said NPC's will be introduced at some point and you could just trade off your extra supplies for something you need. Also if you feel that confident in your abilities you could try Interloper and then you will pray for a single hatched or knife :). Also the whole world is decaying so if you are not fast enough you will not get anything. I am playing interloper right now I spawned in DP worked my way in to CH and maaan it is hard I still do not have a hacksaw and food is getting rarer and rarer soon I'll have to move again on different map. If you like this kind of adrenaline rush then just play interloper :) 

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Actually, I am playing Interloper at the moment - indeed it is quite the adrenaline rush; a constant sense of urgency and dread, fighting for every hour, every morsel of food.

Did see some wood lying on the shoreline, but I didn't dare take it, because from what I've been told, one mistake will send you taking a dunk in the freezing water with instant hypothermia and freezing clothes as a result, which means on Interloper, without a day's worth of food, you're pretty much f*cked.

I'm on day 8 now, barely made my way from DP to CH through a couple of blizzards only to find all the lonely cottages burned to a crisp. Made it up to Mistanthropes Homestead dodging a bear with 16% life left in me. Close call. So I thought: now I'm set, right? Nope: there are only a few houses left, and nearly all of them are empty. No food, little resources.

Of course during the day, my health takes a hit from freezing, so I've learned to ration my food and save it right up to the point when I go to sleep, and to sleep as long in one go as I can to restore my health. This mode definitely requires a much more taut playstyle. Forgot to let my two pieces of gut cure last night when I went to sleep. A little mistake like that might get me killed.

I was fortunate enough to find a hacksaw though. Now I have to go look for a hammer, and I think I'd be best off traveling to Mystery Lake. If only I had a sleeping bag...

In a previous run, where I died of starvation and lack of sleep, I managed to find a winter coat and a fire striker in Desolation Point, such a shame I didn't make it. No such luck so far.

But anyway, yes Interloper does force me to make sure I can keep my hacksaw in shape, so in this mode toolboxes are very, very useful. But all the easier modes... meh, I can pretty much get by without them for a very long time - but even Stalker has become like a cruising mode for me these days, so maybe I should stick to Interloper.

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10 minutes ago, TWM said:

Actually, I am playing Interloper at the moment - indeed it is quite the adrenaline rush; a constant sense of urgency and dread, fighting for every hour, every morsel of food.

Did see some wood lying on the shoreline, but I didn't dare take it, because from what I've been told, one mistake will send you taking a dunk in the freezing water with instant hypothermia and freezing clothes as a result, which means on Interloper, without a day's worth of food, you're pretty much f*cked.

I'm on day 8 now, barely made my way from DP to CH through a couple of blizzards only to find all the lonely cottages burned to a crisp. Made it up to Mistanthropes Homestead dodging a bear with 16% life left in me. Close call. So I thought: now I'm set, right? Nope: there are only a few houses left, and nearly all of them are empty. No food, little resources.

Of course during the day, my health takes a hit from freezing, so I've learned to ration my food and save it right up to the point when I go to sleep, and to sleep as long in one go as I can to restore my health. This mode definitely requires a much more taut playstyle. Forgot to let my two pieces of gut cure last night when I went to sleep. A little mistake like that might get me killed.

I was fortunate enough to find a hacksaw though. Now I have to go look for a hammer, and I think I'd be best off traveling to Mystery Lake. If only I had a sleeping bag...

In a previous run, where I died of starvation and lack of sleep, I managed to find a winter coat and a fire striker in Desolation Point, such a shame I didn't make it. No such luck so far.

But anyway, yes Interloper does force me to make sure I can keep my hacksaw in shape, so in this mode toolboxes are very, very useful. But all the easier modes... meh, I can pretty much get by without them for a very long time - but even Stalker has become like a cruising mode for me these days, so maybe I should stick to Interloper.

All I can say you are very lucky, 3 out of 4 games I am struggling to get matches hacksaw is a beautiful dream for me however that doesn't mean that I can't harvest carcasses all I need is a trip to the mine ;)

Also I just tested it you can sleep in snow shelter so that takes care of the sleeping problem, and condition Regen. This is not a spoiler I think that every player should know this otherwise it is unused mechanic. Just like the toolbox on easier LVLs yes ? :)  

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